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I wish they'd stop treating this like some sort of news. Is there any significant number of people out there seriously claiming that the only carbon or water in

by jerf 3y ago

I wish they'd stop treating this like some sort of news. Is there any significant number of people out there seriously claiming that the only carbon or water in the universe is on planet Earth? The mere presence of water or carbon challenges no theories, surprises no one, disproves no one in the scientific community. I'm sure there will be some sort of interesting thing found about the carbon itself, as there always is whenever something is closely examined for the first time. Perhaps that news will challenge a theory, surprise someone, or disprove someone. But this news isn't it.

1970-01-01 3y ago
>The mere presence of water or carbon challenges no theories, surprises no one, disproves no one in the scientific community. Its actually doing the opposite of this. See https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/negative-results-null-results-or-no-results https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/negative-results-null-...
kaycebasques 3y ago
This seems to be the news: > "This is the biggest carbon-rich asteroid sample ever returned to Earth," NASA administrator Bill Nelson said Maybe the presence of carbon and water is well-established through theory and remote observation, but it seems a lot more conclusive when you can find it, go out and grab it, and bring it back to Earth. Or maybe it's already well-established through asteroids that fall naturally to Earth? And isn't there a huge related question that is not conclusively settled whatsoever (if my armchair scientist readings are correct): whether life started here or elsewhere?
- jerf 3y ago
  I think the life question may be what they are trying to get at, but if they are, they're running the story on cognitive autopilot. Nobody of any scientific significance believes, or as far as I can see as someone interested in this topic, ever has believed that the limit on life elsewhere is that only Earth had the raw elements necessary for life. Nobody doubts that carbon atoms exist elsewhere in the universe, and in quantity. It's sort of like the stories about how there are planets around other stars, therefore, handwave handwave something about life give us more money. Nobody (of scientific relevance) has ever seriously claimed that the only planets in the universe are the ones we can see in our solar system. There were some debates about how many there may be, but nobody ever proposed that they were somehow rare in absolute terms. Debates about the natures of those planets aplenty, certainly, but not their existence.
MattPalmer1086 3y ago
Strawman. Nobody ever claimed that the only carbon or water is found on earth. The presence of carbon and water in these asteroids is interesting because they preserve a record of what the early solar system was like. We did not know if they had these materials in abundance. Maybe they had a bit, maybe a lot. Maybe almost none. We did not know. Now we do. If the finding was almost none, that prompts different ideas about their source on earth than if they had. You may have thought this outcome was very likely, but it was just speculation on your part.
- jerf 3y ago
  "Strawman. Nobody ever claimed that the only carbon or water is found on earth." My point, you found it. Congratulations. It is not often talked about in the ever-popular "logical fallacies" articles online, but you do need to do slightly more work than just seeing a fallacy and immediately trying to score points with an accusation. There mere presence of a fallacy does not quite mean an error is being made. You might also want to try to finish reading the content before reflexively jumping up and yelling FALLACY, as you clearly did not.

by jerf 3y ago

1970-01-01 3y ago

>The mere presence of water or carbon challenges no theories, surprises no one, disproves no one in the scientific community. Its actually doing the opposite of this. See https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/negative-results-null-results-or-no-results https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/negative-results-null-...

kaycebasques 3y ago

This seems to be the news: > "This is the biggest carbon-rich asteroid sample ever returned to Earth," NASA administrator Bill Nelson said Maybe the presence of carbon and water is well-established through theory and remote observation, but it seems a lot more conclusive when you can find it, go out and grab it, and bring it back to Earth. Or maybe it's already well-established through asteroids that fall naturally to Earth? And isn't there a huge related question that is not conclusively settled whatsoever (if my armchair scientist readings are correct): whether life started here or elsewhere?

jerf 3y ago
I think the life question may be what they are trying to get at, but if they are, they're running the story on cognitive autopilot. Nobody of any scientific significance believes, or as far as I can see as someone interested in this topic, ever has believed that the limit on life elsewhere is that only Earth had the raw elements necessary for life. Nobody doubts that carbon atoms exist elsewhere in the universe, and in quantity. It's sort of like the stories about how there are planets around other stars, therefore, handwave handwave something about life give us more money. Nobody (of scientific relevance) has ever seriously claimed that the only planets in the universe are the ones we can see in our solar system. There were some debates about how many there may be, but nobody ever proposed that they were somehow rare in absolute terms. Debates about the natures of those planets aplenty, certainly, but not their existence.

MattPalmer1086 3y ago

Strawman. Nobody ever claimed that the only carbon or water is found on earth. The presence of carbon and water in these asteroids is interesting because they preserve a record of what the early solar system was like. We did not know if they had these materials in abundance. Maybe they had a bit, maybe a lot. Maybe almost none. We did not know. Now we do. If the finding was almost none, that prompts different ideas about their source on earth than if they had. You may have thought this outcome was very likely, but it was just speculation on your part.

jerf 3y ago
"Strawman. Nobody ever claimed that the only carbon or water is found on earth." My point, you found it. Congratulations. It is not often talked about in the ever-popular "logical fallacies" articles online, but you do need to do slightly more work than just seeing a fallacy and immediately trying to score points with an accusation. There mere presence of a fallacy does not quite mean an error is being made. You might also want to try to finish reading the content before reflexively jumping up and yelling FALLACY, as you clearly did not.