4 ms·

While I don't think that his status as an informant is particularly newsworthy, think it is nasty for this article to be published and in fact would praise his

While I don't think that his status as an informant is particularly newsworthy, think it is nasty for this article to be published and in fact would praise his patriotism, they don't think they are punching up, they are punching up. Beyond being a gay man who got outed as a confidential source, Thiel is also one of the most powerful people in the world. He is a billionaire who bankrolled multiple people's campaigns for federal office in the last few years. Your average HN commenter does not approach that level of power and influence and never will. The problem I see is that these people think that "telling" on criminals and international intelligence operations is wrong, for some reason. That's weird and really negative for our country.

oooyay 3y ago
The kind of mental arm wrestling you just engaged in to explain that point is why "punching up", which usually involves some amount of drift from norms and ethics, is problematic. The people willing to engage in that and who think doing patriotic duty is a problem is a near circle.
- HelloMcFly 3y ago
  > The kind of mental arm wrestling you just engaged in to explain that point What arm wrestling? It's pretty simple: anyone "taking shots" at him on Hacker News is definitionally punching-up because Thiel has more power and privilege than anyone here, power and privilege he routinely exercises on local and national stages. I don't have any issue with his actions working with the FBI here for what it's worth.
  - oooyay 3y ago
    It's the timing. There's a time for rife comments aimed at Peter Thiel; I have plenty of those. As I put it before, when a gay man is outted in explicitly stated retributive fashion for being a CHS informant for doing his duty as a defense contractor it starts to color the people who are doing the punching. The whole situation should give us pause, not the reflex to punch someone.
    - anigbrowl 3y ago
      Nobody gives a shit about the fact that Peter Thiel is gay. It's the palling around with fascists and having massive reach into the political and defense spheres that makes people dislike him.
      - jonathankoren 3y ago
        And let’s be honest about Thiel. He was in the glass closet. Literally everyone in SV knew he was gay. He didn’t hide it. He just didn’t want it published so he could more easily raise money from Mohammed Bonesaw al-Saud. Then again, since when MBS care about staying in anyone’s good graces?
    - HelloMcFly 3y ago
      If Alex Jones was in the news for carrying someone out of a burning building, I'd be acknowledging his good work while continuing to "punch up" on him due to his behavior that seemingly seeks to destroy civilized society (an exaggeration, but not a wild one). Someone doesn't get a free pass from earned mockery on an article-by-article basis, Thiel's civic duty to the FBI in this instance isn't some temporary hall pass for his tangible support for fascistic policies and politicians. That's he gay is only relevant to you in this conversation, the person critiquing the critique. Why does that somehow give him extra victim status? Thiel is not subject to the power or cultural dynamics individuals in marginalized groups often are. He's being treated like Charles Koch would be were he to do the same thing - that's equality, baby.
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  "punching up", which usually involves some amount of drift from norms and ethics what 'Punching down' is fits that description, as it's slang for taking easy shots at weaker people or those who can't fight back. How does criticizing someone in a greater position of power involve drift from ethics?
  - sva_ 3y ago
    Because it implies that the metaphorical 'violence' against people you consider 'up' is morally justified, which it is not. It is merely ideologically justified, in some limited circles.
    - anigbrowl 3y ago
      Oh, you're not allowed to express abstract opposition to people in positions of power now? Nonsense. American political language is awash in fighting metaphors. One of Thiel's more famous investment, Anduril, is named after a fictional sword; if he gets to invoke the idea of weapons then you have no standing to complain about other people's rhetorical selections. If you are looking for something to get upset about, try looking at people who send non-metaphorical threats of violence to librarians, schools, and the like on the regular.
t-3 3y ago
> The problem I see is that these people think that "telling" on criminals and international intelligence operations is wrong, for some reason. That's weird and really negative for our country. If you think it's weird, you must have grown up very sheltered. Every child knows what happens to snitches. It was common practice to punish both the offender and the tattletale when I was growing up, because "nobody likes a snitch". The vast majority of the population has the same or similar cultural context here.
- ameister14 3y ago
  So the vast majority of the population didn't used to have the same context, not regarding international espionage and serious crimes. Not telling a teacher? Sure. Ragging on someone for telling the FBI about a murder? No. "Snitches get stitches" works for perpetuating a gang's control through violence but doesn't really help people in a community. It's a terrible norm.

oooyay 3y ago

The kind of mental arm wrestling you just engaged in to explain that point is why "punching up", which usually involves some amount of drift from norms and ethics, is problematic. The people willing to engage in that and who think doing patriotic duty is a problem is a near circle.

HelloMcFly 3y ago
> The kind of mental arm wrestling you just engaged in to explain that point What arm wrestling? It's pretty simple: anyone "taking shots" at him on Hacker News is definitionally punching-up because Thiel has more power and privilege than anyone here, power and privilege he routinely exercises on local and national stages. I don't have any issue with his actions working with the FBI here for what it's worth.
- oooyay 3y ago
  It's the timing. There's a time for rife comments aimed at Peter Thiel; I have plenty of those. As I put it before, when a gay man is outted in explicitly stated retributive fashion for being a CHS informant for doing his duty as a defense contractor it starts to color the people who are doing the punching. The whole situation should give us pause, not the reflex to punch someone.
  - anigbrowl 3y ago
    Nobody gives a shit about the fact that Peter Thiel is gay. It's the palling around with fascists and having massive reach into the political and defense spheres that makes people dislike him.
    - jonathankoren 3y ago
      And let’s be honest about Thiel. He was in the glass closet. Literally everyone in SV knew he was gay. He didn’t hide it. He just didn’t want it published so he could more easily raise money from Mohammed Bonesaw al-Saud. Then again, since when MBS care about staying in anyone’s good graces?
  - HelloMcFly 3y ago
    If Alex Jones was in the news for carrying someone out of a burning building, I'd be acknowledging his good work while continuing to "punch up" on him due to his behavior that seemingly seeks to destroy civilized society (an exaggeration, but not a wild one). Someone doesn't get a free pass from earned mockery on an article-by-article basis, Thiel's civic duty to the FBI in this instance isn't some temporary hall pass for his tangible support for fascistic policies and politicians. That's he gay is only relevant to you in this conversation, the person critiquing the critique. Why does that somehow give him extra victim status? Thiel is not subject to the power or cultural dynamics individuals in marginalized groups often are. He's being treated like Charles Koch would be were he to do the same thing - that's equality, baby.
anigbrowl 3y ago
"punching up", which usually involves some amount of drift from norms and ethics what 'Punching down' is fits that description, as it's slang for taking easy shots at weaker people or those who can't fight back. How does criticizing someone in a greater position of power involve drift from ethics?
- sva_ 3y ago
  Because it implies that the metaphorical 'violence' against people you consider 'up' is morally justified, which it is not. It is merely ideologically justified, in some limited circles.
  - anigbrowl 3y ago
    Oh, you're not allowed to express abstract opposition to people in positions of power now? Nonsense. American political language is awash in fighting metaphors. One of Thiel's more famous investment, Anduril, is named after a fictional sword; if he gets to invoke the idea of weapons then you have no standing to complain about other people's rhetorical selections. If you are looking for something to get upset about, try looking at people who send non-metaphorical threats of violence to librarians, schools, and the like on the regular.

t-3 3y ago

> The problem I see is that these people think that "telling" on criminals and international intelligence operations is wrong, for some reason. That's weird and really negative for our country. If you think it's weird, you must have grown up very sheltered. Every child knows what happens to snitches. It was common practice to punish both the offender and the tattletale when I was growing up, because "nobody likes a snitch". The vast majority of the population has the same or similar cultural context here.

ameister14 3y ago
So the vast majority of the population didn't used to have the same context, not regarding international espionage and serious crimes. Not telling a teacher? Sure. Ragging on someone for telling the FBI about a murder? No. "Snitches get stitches" works for perpetuating a gang's control through violence but doesn't really help people in a community. It's a terrible norm.