5 ms·

Remember that time when the AP and Reuters published headlines that Israel had bombed a Palestinian hospital with 500 dead? When was that? Two days ago? I very

by hersko 3y ago

Remember that time when the AP and Reuters published headlines that Israel had bombed a Palestinian hospital with 500 dead? When was that? Two days ago? I very much doubt their journalistic integrity when they publish Gaza Ministry of Health (Hamas) talking points without question. We now know the hospital was not bombed ([1] it hit the parking lot), there is no way there were 500 casualties as was so breathlessly reported by those agencies "that takes accuracy seriously." The consensus also seems to be it was a Palestinian misfire that hit the parking lot, not an Israeli missile as was reported, at the time, as a fact. [1] https://www.nowtheendbegins.com/al-ahli-baptist-hospital-in-gaza-was-not-bombed-rocket-landed-in-parking-lot/ https://www.nowtheendbegins.com/al-ahli-baptist-hospital-in-...

diggan 3y ago
> Remember that time when the AP and Reuters published headlines that Israel had bombed a Palestinian hospital with 500 dead? When was that? Two days ago? If I recall those headlines correctly, they all included with "said Palestinian officials" or similar, which makes the reporting factual no matter who actually bombed the hospital. They were reporting on official statements, not making claims about what happened. Similar things happen all the time. "State department officials say X" and similar isn't AP or Reuters making claims about X being true or not, they're just reporting statements.
- hersko 3y ago
  "...said Palestinian officials" is such a slimy way to absolve them of responsibility. People around the world trust them, like OP over here. They have a responsibility to do even basic verification work before posting something that they know will ignite riots around the world. The IDF seems very open about the strikes they make, were they reached out to for comment? Should the reporter have thought to themselves, "hey, does it make sense that Israel would bomb a hospital packed with civilians right as the US president is about to visit? Would Israel so blatantly destroy the relatively high global goodwill and backing they currently have? What do they have to gain?" It makes no sense if you think about it for half a second, yet these "reputable news sources" sent push notifications to millions of people to spew a complete lie form Hamas when THEY HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE ACTUAL EVENT SINCE IT NEVER ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
  - dfaomiopnio 3y ago
    [dead]
    - philwelch 3y ago
      > There was an explosion at a hospital that killed hundreds of people. This is not in dispute. There is no evidence that hundreds of people were killed. The EU believes the death toll to be between 10-50.
      - dfaomiopnio 3y ago
        The US puts the death toll at 100-300, for whatever unclassified documents from US intelligence are worth. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/19/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-blast-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/19/world/middleeast/gaza-hos... I can't find the EU number, but I'll take your word for it. It's entirely possible the death toll is lower. I don't claim that we know anything for certain.
        DeeplyDisturbed 3y ago
        You originally claimed "The event happened. There was an explosion at a hospital that killed hundreds of people. This is not in dispute."
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      > The event happened. There was an explosion at a hospital that killed hundreds of people. This is not in dispute. Looking at the crater left behind by the missile and the damage radius I find it very hard to believe that hundreds of people died.
  - diggan 3y ago
    > People around the world trust them, like OP over here. They have a responsibility to do even basic verification work before posting something that they know will ignite riots around the world. Yes, I'm sure they verified exactly what Palestinian officials said. What they didn't verify (and what the articles were not about) is if the "facts" the Palestinian officials gave them were correct or not. The articles are not investigative articles that strive to report only the truth and facts, but more informal articles that gives you what various people had said.
- Gud 3y ago
  No they did not. I was following this very closely as it happened. Obviously I don’t remember the exact phrasing, but at least Reuters had put in their headline wording similar to “Israel bombs Gaza Hospital, killing 500”. In the text it was less clear, but the damage was done. I lost all respect for Reuters because of this. I know, because I was arguing on Reddit(person has since deleted their comments, because they were spreading FAKE NEWS) while it was happening. https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/B7HLYVmrqL https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/B7HLYVmrqL
dfaomiopnio 3y ago
You will notice that the "journalists" who wrote your story don't quote a single instance of these allegedly false claims. This is probably because there were none. Every single story I saw made it clear that these were allegations from Hamas, included whatever information was available from the Israeli government, and repeatedly stated that nothing was certain. There truly could not have been more accurate early coverage. The information simply did not exist. This is the earliest version of that story I could find from Reuters. https://web.archive.org/web/20231017192141/https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/diplomats-renew-calls-gaza-aid-iran-warns-israel-2023-10-16/ https://web.archive.org/web/20231017192141/https://www.reute... But you could definitely argue that that article repeats the claims from Gaza too uncritically, which is why it was updated within seven minutes of publication to make it clearer the reports were unsubstantiated. https://web.archive.org/web/20231017195440/https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/diplomats-renew-calls-gaza-aid-iran-warns-israel-2023-10-16/ https://web.archive.org/web/20231017195440/https://www.reute... But that still gives a one-sided story. They say that the Israeli government has yet to comment. Which is why the story was updated again to include information from the Israeli military, arriving at this version within an hour: https://web.archive.org/web/20231017202059/https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/diplomats-renew-calls-gaza-aid-iran-warns-israel-2023-10-16/ https://web.archive.org/web/20231017202059/https://www.reute... The fog of war isn't just in video games. As usual, the New York Times has a good article on this subject. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/18/business/media/hospital-blast-gaza-reports.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/18/business/media/hospital-b... You might argue (and I would argue) that it is irresponsible to publish any story at all when things are so uncertain. The original story was accurate, but confusing rather than enlightening. That's why I don't read breaking news. I don't entirely disagree with your criticisms. We can, and should, demand better from our papers. But the solution isn't to write off the best papers we have. People who refuse to read the Times invariably replace it with something far worse. P.S. There were "around 500" deaths. The current estimates I've seen are 200-300, which is "around 500" when picking through rubble in a war zone.
- hersko 3y ago
  A few points. - Reuters leads by saying the reports come from "health officials", "Gaza health authorities", and "Palestinian health authorities", as if these are reliable third party agencies. These are all Hamas, an internationally recognized terrorist organization that last week went on a killing spree murdering and brutalizing over a thousand civilians including the elderly and children. Reporting what they say without any actual verification is heinous and absolutely destroys their credibility. > As usual, the New York Times has a good article on this subject The New York times was one of the most egregious actors regarding what happened. They had a front page story about the hospital showing a completely different bombed building from the other side of Gaza as if that was the hospital that was destroyed [1]. I genuinely don't understand how people are not being fired over this. > There were "around 500" deaths. 200-300 is "around 500" when picking through rubble in a war zone. That's just it. There was no rubble. There was no 200-300 hundred deaths. Look at the photo. It was a parking lot that was set on fire with rocket fuel. The building was practically undamaged. People still act like the death toll numbers coming from Gaza are accurate when they are clearly not. [1] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8uNSAbXoAABhR0?format=jpg&name=medium https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8uNSAbXoAABhR0?format=jpg&name=...

by hersko 3y ago

diggan 3y ago

> Remember that time when the AP and Reuters published headlines that Israel had bombed a Palestinian hospital with 500 dead? When was that? Two days ago? If I recall those headlines correctly, they all included with "said Palestinian officials" or similar, which makes the reporting factual no matter who actually bombed the hospital. They were reporting on official statements, not making claims about what happened. Similar things happen all the time. "State department officials say X" and similar isn't AP or Reuters making claims about X being true or not, they're just reporting statements.

hersko 3y ago
"...said Palestinian officials" is such a slimy way to absolve them of responsibility. People around the world trust them, like OP over here. They have a responsibility to do even basic verification work before posting something that they know will ignite riots around the world. The IDF seems very open about the strikes they make, were they reached out to for comment? Should the reporter have thought to themselves, "hey, does it make sense that Israel would bomb a hospital packed with civilians right as the US president is about to visit? Would Israel so blatantly destroy the relatively high global goodwill and backing they currently have? What do they have to gain?" It makes no sense if you think about it for half a second, yet these "reputable news sources" sent push notifications to millions of people to spew a complete lie form Hamas when THEY HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE ACTUAL EVENT SINCE IT NEVER ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
- dfaomiopnio 3y ago
  [dead]
  - philwelch 3y ago
    > There was an explosion at a hospital that killed hundreds of people. This is not in dispute. There is no evidence that hundreds of people were killed. The EU believes the death toll to be between 10-50.
    - dfaomiopnio 3y ago
      The US puts the death toll at 100-300, for whatever unclassified documents from US intelligence are worth. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/19/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-blast-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/19/world/middleeast/gaza-hos... I can't find the EU number, but I'll take your word for it. It's entirely possible the death toll is lower. I don't claim that we know anything for certain.
      - DeeplyDisturbed 3y ago
        You originally claimed "The event happened. There was an explosion at a hospital that killed hundreds of people. This is not in dispute."
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > The event happened. There was an explosion at a hospital that killed hundreds of people. This is not in dispute. Looking at the crater left behind by the missile and the damage radius I find it very hard to believe that hundreds of people died.
- diggan 3y ago
  > People around the world trust them, like OP over here. They have a responsibility to do even basic verification work before posting something that they know will ignite riots around the world. Yes, I'm sure they verified exactly what Palestinian officials said. What they didn't verify (and what the articles were not about) is if the "facts" the Palestinian officials gave them were correct or not. The articles are not investigative articles that strive to report only the truth and facts, but more informal articles that gives you what various people had said.
Gud 3y ago
No they did not. I was following this very closely as it happened. Obviously I don’t remember the exact phrasing, but at least Reuters had put in their headline wording similar to “Israel bombs Gaza Hospital, killing 500”. In the text it was less clear, but the damage was done. I lost all respect for Reuters because of this. I know, because I was arguing on Reddit(person has since deleted their comments, because they were spreading FAKE NEWS) while it was happening. https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/B7HLYVmrqL https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/B7HLYVmrqL

dfaomiopnio 3y ago

You will notice that the "journalists" who wrote your story don't quote a single instance of these allegedly false claims. This is probably because there were none. Every single story I saw made it clear that these were allegations from Hamas, included whatever information was available from the Israeli government, and repeatedly stated that nothing was certain. There truly could not have been more accurate early coverage. The information simply did not exist. This is the earliest version of that story I could find from Reuters. https://web.archive.org/web/20231017192141/https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/diplomats-renew-calls-gaza-aid-iran-warns-israel-2023-10-16/ https://web.archive.org/web/20231017192141/https://www.reute... But you could definitely argue that that article repeats the claims from Gaza too uncritically, which is why it was updated within seven minutes of publication to make it clearer the reports were unsubstantiated. https://web.archive.org/web/20231017195440/https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/diplomats-renew-calls-gaza-aid-iran-warns-israel-2023-10-16/ https://web.archive.org/web/20231017195440/https://www.reute... But that still gives a one-sided story. They say that the Israeli government has yet to comment. Which is why the story was updated again to include information from the Israeli military, arriving at this version within an hour: https://web.archive.org/web/20231017202059/https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/diplomats-renew-calls-gaza-aid-iran-warns-israel-2023-10-16/ https://web.archive.org/web/20231017202059/https://www.reute... The fog of war isn't just in video games. As usual, the New York Times has a good article on this subject. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/18/business/media/hospital-blast-gaza-reports.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/18/business/media/hospital-b... You might argue (and I would argue) that it is irresponsible to publish any story at all when things are so uncertain. The original story was accurate, but confusing rather than enlightening. That's why I don't read breaking news. I don't entirely disagree with your criticisms. We can, and should, demand better from our papers. But the solution isn't to write off the best papers we have. People who refuse to read the Times invariably replace it with something far worse. P.S. There were "around 500" deaths. The current estimates I've seen are 200-300, which is "around 500" when picking through rubble in a war zone.

hersko 3y ago
A few points. - Reuters leads by saying the reports come from "health officials", "Gaza health authorities", and "Palestinian health authorities", as if these are reliable third party agencies. These are all Hamas, an internationally recognized terrorist organization that last week went on a killing spree murdering and brutalizing over a thousand civilians including the elderly and children. Reporting what they say without any actual verification is heinous and absolutely destroys their credibility. > As usual, the New York Times has a good article on this subject The New York times was one of the most egregious actors regarding what happened. They had a front page story about the hospital showing a completely different bombed building from the other side of Gaza as if that was the hospital that was destroyed [1]. I genuinely don't understand how people are not being fired over this. > There were "around 500" deaths. 200-300 is "around 500" when picking through rubble in a war zone. That's just it. There was no rubble. There was no 200-300 hundred deaths. Look at the photo. It was a parking lot that was set on fire with rocket fuel. The building was practically undamaged. People still act like the death toll numbers coming from Gaza are accurate when they are clearly not. [1] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8uNSAbXoAABhR0?format=jpg&name=medium https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8uNSAbXoAABhR0?format=jpg&name=...