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https://archive.ph/HiJFA https://archive.ph/HiJFA My only complaint with the American university system is the insistence on general education requirements. Is

by Ajay-p 3y ago

https://archive.ph/HiJFA https://archive.ph/HiJFA My only complaint with the American university system is the insistence on general education requirements. Is there another country in the world that does not allow students to step directly into their major field of study? I understand that the perception is that general education requirements build a "well rounded" student, but what if they don't want nor need those classes? The classes add to the cost of the education but amount to little more than memorization for tests, and students forget most of it afterwards. I question their value.

philipov 3y ago
That's what trade schools are for.
- strangesmells02 3y ago
  Theres no trade schools for medicine.
  - trelane 3y ago
    There are, they just require a bachelor's first.
- bumby 3y ago
  I think it's unfortunate that this comment is being downvoted because it underscores an important transition regarding university education in the US. At some point, the focus of college changed from that of understanding and contributing to culture to one geared to vocation. (I put the start around the Morrill Land Grant Act in the mid-1800s). If you go back a few decades, surveys showed the main goal of students was to "develop a philosophy of life." Now it's to "find a good job." And before people say it's because of a change of demographics, the largest influx of working-class students came after WWII and they still tended toward the former outlook for a few decades. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but we should probably take note of that change and the consequences of it.
iakh 3y ago
I majored in EE and only ever had math and engineering classes. I had one class in philosophy that I took for fun but dropped after a week after realizing it's not for me. It didn't hurt my option to graduate in three years. What's the requirement for general education?
- TuringNYC 3y ago
  >> I majored in EE and only ever had math and engineering classes. I had one class in philosophy that I took for fun but dropped after a week after realizing it's not for me. It didn't hurt my option to graduate in three years. What's the requirement for general education? Which university did you attend? Almost every EE program i've seen has atleast some writing course requirements. Some social science reqs.
- tzs 3y ago
  It's going to vary from school to school. Here's Caltech's requirements for courses outside of your major: 1. 2 freshman humanities courses, from 2 different divisions of the humanities. This will be 18 units [1] of humanities. 2. 2 introductory social sciences courses, from 2 different disciplines (e.g., anthropology and economics). That's another 18 units. 3. 18 units of advanced humanities. 4. 18 units of advanced social sciences in the same disciplines that you took in #2. 5. 36 more units of humanities and social sciences from any mix of humanities and social sciences you want, except no freshman classes). That works out to 108 units of humanities and social sciences, which is 22% of your coursework if you do the minimum amount of other coursework to graduate. If you took a very heavy course load, petitioning to take an overload every term for 4 years, it would still be 17% of your time spent on humanities and social sciences. It's around 20% for the typical student. Also Caltech has some breadth requirements for STEM outside your major. Everyone has to take calculus, physics, chemistry, biology, at least one lab course, and at least one other science course. Even if you go to Caltech to major in English (and yes, that does happen) you are going to have take those science courses--and they don't have some watered down versions of them for non-majors. You'll be taking the same physics for example that physics majors take. I believe that MIT has similar requirements. [1] A class that you are expected to spend N hours a week on (lectures + homework + labs) earns you N units per term, and there are 3 terms per year. Most classes are 9 units. 486 units to graduate. Normal load is 36 to 48 units per term.
horns4lyfe 3y ago
But where else will you be taught all the correct political and social stances?
- starcraft2wol 3y ago
  I guess you will just have to stick with the ones your parents taught you, and were implicit in the culture and reinforced by state curriculum.
driscoll42 3y ago
The general education requirement is one of the single most important things that universities demand. A well rounded, liberal arts education is crucial to making sure people who come out don't just come out with a hyper specialized knowledge and know nothing else of the world. I agree that it could be taught better, in fact there should be more gen ed reqs added, not fewer.
- pirocks 3y ago
  I've heard some variation of this many many times, and remain very unconvinced. General education in university isn't the norm around the world. Are non-americans all hyper-specialized people who know nothing else of the world? Are people who didn't go to university the same? Did someone do a study at some point and conclude that general ed was important or do these general ed requirements exist purely because they are tradition?
  - starcraft2wol 3y ago
    > General education in university isn't the norm around the world. And it shows. I was recently at a training for $ELITE_HIRING_COMPANY and as part of this they asked us to discuss some liberal arts style questions. The international hires who had been answering business questions all day suddenly were extremely confused at the question itself and had nothing to add (and it wasn't a language problem). You might argue that those skills are not substantive or valuable, and perhaps we just learned in school to parrot reasonable sounding responses, but it was a stark contrast.
- starcraft2wol 3y ago
  I agree in principle. It's probably better at top schools and lib arts colleges, but a large percentage of my generals were also low quality department fundraisers (a health class comes to mind).
bordercases 3y ago
You want to leave it all to lawyers?
kdmccormick 3y ago
> insistence on general education requirements. > step directly into their major field of study These need not be mutually exclusive! My (US) alma mater required a specific number of unspecific non-major classes, the only stipulation being that a certain number come from the broad categories of STEM, social science, and the humanities. Unlike other colleges, we could take them whenever we wanted to and could pick from basically the entire college's catalog. Some freshmen jumped into their first term with onky major classes (although they later regretted that). > The classes add to the cost of the education but amount to little more than memorization for tests, and students forget most of it afterwards. I question their value. They sound poorly designed and/or poorly aught. My non-major classes were some of the most fun and interesting ones I ever took! As a CS major, I got to write and produce an EP, and research & write a report on the safety of campus nightlife, both for credit. I'm really glad I wasn't able to just fast-track myself through only CS classes and get out of there without any creative work or serious writing experience.
- coliveira 3y ago
  > My non-major classes were some of the most fun Outside the US, college education is not the place where you go to have fun and finding interesting stuff. It is considered to be your first professional duty as an adult. You can have all the fun you want outside classes.
  - r2_pilot 3y ago
    Maybe that's one of the reasons the United States has such well-regarded colleges, because play and work combined provide a stronger foundation than either alone.
  - isykt 3y ago
    This is a good system to create mindless drones who suppress their own ambitions and interest and toil away until they die. Fuck that.
    - kdmccormick 3y ago
conductr 3y ago
A lot of people don’t actually work in their field of study after they graduate. A quick google say only 46% do. So I think some general education is in order and valuable. I do think they could speed up the time to get deep in your major courses. But I changed majors 3 times, each change cost me time since I’m just basically randomly guessing what I think I might have some interest in that might also provide a decent life/career. Trying to plan out your whole life at ages 18-20 seems ludicrous to me still and I don’t feel like I was equipped with enough information to really know what possibilities were out there in the real world.
sinkasapa 3y ago
It depends on your values I suppose but as someone who teaches a course that many take for general education requirements I'd say that the majority enter my course not knowing basic things about the world, like that American Sign Language is a language and not just people making gestures at one another. They also believe weird things they learned off the Internet, like "Eskimos" having 1000 words for snow or some tribe having no concept of time because they don't have a past tense. That is just the tip of the iceberg. Students in their early 20s often haven't even developed the general bullshit detecting skills to question a lot of this stuff. If they don't learn these skills somewhere they may never do so. I know it sounds kind of harsh but it is possible to get a degree in engineering or English literature and still be super stupid outside of a narrow field. I think that is bad for society. It creates a lot of problems when people don't get educated in the basics. It makes them poorer critical thinkers. It is easier to take advantage of them and they may be part of something hurtful or destructive without understanding why it is a bad thing. A university that sends out the equivalent of flat earthers and anti-vaxxers in droves is worthless. Who cares if people are getting jobs right out of college if they may actively be working against the public good in the long run due to ignorance?
Eumenes 3y ago
I agree 1000%. I've made this argument numerous times here before and always get push back. By the time you reach college, you've repeated the general education requirements several times over. Not only does it hamper your ability to 'move on' and start your career, its ridiculous to assume university systems know what makes up a 'well rounded' individual. If anything, the higher education system, and its staff, couldn't be farther from well rounded. They live in superbly isolated bubbles. There is some unique psychology at play when it comes to defending the status quo of the US college system as well, esp. from the college educated. There's almost a holy mysticism associated with higher education. Any push to change the system, is dumbing it down, and anti-intellectual. Its always been this way, we cannot change it. I suffered through 4 years and mountain high debt, so you must as well. But ... we can discuss making it free and/or cheaper, but we cannot assume any change to the system. My guess is the systems are overly bureaucratic and corrupt - the administrators couldn't justify their compensation packages or tuition cost with smaller/less staff. The endowments would decrease. Senior roles at universities are places for executives and politicians to coast into retirement. Not very sexy when the system is neutered. Public colleges, and some private, operate large employee unions, which offer consistent kickbacks to political campaigns.

by Ajay-p 3y ago

philipov 3y ago

That's what trade schools are for.

strangesmells02 3y ago
Theres no trade schools for medicine.
- trelane 3y ago
  There are, they just require a bachelor's first.
bumby 3y ago
I think it's unfortunate that this comment is being downvoted because it underscores an important transition regarding university education in the US. At some point, the focus of college changed from that of understanding and contributing to culture to one geared to vocation. (I put the start around the Morrill Land Grant Act in the mid-1800s). If you go back a few decades, surveys showed the main goal of students was to "develop a philosophy of life." Now it's to "find a good job." And before people say it's because of a change of demographics, the largest influx of working-class students came after WWII and they still tended toward the former outlook for a few decades. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but we should probably take note of that change and the consequences of it.

iakh 3y ago

I majored in EE and only ever had math and engineering classes. I had one class in philosophy that I took for fun but dropped after a week after realizing it's not for me. It didn't hurt my option to graduate in three years. What's the requirement for general education?

TuringNYC 3y ago
>> I majored in EE and only ever had math and engineering classes. I had one class in philosophy that I took for fun but dropped after a week after realizing it's not for me. It didn't hurt my option to graduate in three years. What's the requirement for general education? Which university did you attend? Almost every EE program i've seen has atleast some writing course requirements. Some social science reqs.
tzs 3y ago
It's going to vary from school to school. Here's Caltech's requirements for courses outside of your major: 1. 2 freshman humanities courses, from 2 different divisions of the humanities. This will be 18 units [1] of humanities. 2. 2 introductory social sciences courses, from 2 different disciplines (e.g., anthropology and economics). That's another 18 units. 3. 18 units of advanced humanities. 4. 18 units of advanced social sciences in the same disciplines that you took in #2. 5. 36 more units of humanities and social sciences from any mix of humanities and social sciences you want, except no freshman classes). That works out to 108 units of humanities and social sciences, which is 22% of your coursework if you do the minimum amount of other coursework to graduate. If you took a very heavy course load, petitioning to take an overload every term for 4 years, it would still be 17% of your time spent on humanities and social sciences. It's around 20% for the typical student. Also Caltech has some breadth requirements for STEM outside your major. Everyone has to take calculus, physics, chemistry, biology, at least one lab course, and at least one other science course. Even if you go to Caltech to major in English (and yes, that does happen) you are going to have take those science courses--and they don't have some watered down versions of them for non-majors. You'll be taking the same physics for example that physics majors take. I believe that MIT has similar requirements. [1] A class that you are expected to spend N hours a week on (lectures + homework + labs) earns you N units per term, and there are 3 terms per year. Most classes are 9 units. 486 units to graduate. Normal load is 36 to 48 units per term.

horns4lyfe 3y ago

But where else will you be taught all the correct political and social stances?

starcraft2wol 3y ago
I guess you will just have to stick with the ones your parents taught you, and were implicit in the culture and reinforced by state curriculum.

driscoll42 3y ago

The general education requirement is one of the single most important things that universities demand. A well rounded, liberal arts education is crucial to making sure people who come out don't just come out with a hyper specialized knowledge and know nothing else of the world. I agree that it could be taught better, in fact there should be more gen ed reqs added, not fewer.

pirocks 3y ago
I've heard some variation of this many many times, and remain very unconvinced. General education in university isn't the norm around the world. Are non-americans all hyper-specialized people who know nothing else of the world? Are people who didn't go to university the same? Did someone do a study at some point and conclude that general ed was important or do these general ed requirements exist purely because they are tradition?
- starcraft2wol 3y ago
  > General education in university isn't the norm around the world. And it shows. I was recently at a training for $ELITE_HIRING_COMPANY and as part of this they asked us to discuss some liberal arts style questions. The international hires who had been answering business questions all day suddenly were extremely confused at the question itself and had nothing to add (and it wasn't a language problem). You might argue that those skills are not substantive or valuable, and perhaps we just learned in school to parrot reasonable sounding responses, but it was a stark contrast.
starcraft2wol 3y ago
I agree in principle. It's probably better at top schools and lib arts colleges, but a large percentage of my generals were also low quality department fundraisers (a health class comes to mind).

bordercases 3y ago

You want to leave it all to lawyers?

kdmccormick 3y ago

> insistence on general education requirements. > step directly into their major field of study These need not be mutually exclusive! My (US) alma mater required a specific number of unspecific non-major classes, the only stipulation being that a certain number come from the broad categories of STEM, social science, and the humanities. Unlike other colleges, we could take them whenever we wanted to and could pick from basically the entire college's catalog. Some freshmen jumped into their first term with onky major classes (although they later regretted that). > The classes add to the cost of the education but amount to little more than memorization for tests, and students forget most of it afterwards. I question their value. They sound poorly designed and/or poorly aught. My non-major classes were some of the most fun and interesting ones I ever took! As a CS major, I got to write and produce an EP, and research & write a report on the safety of campus nightlife, both for credit. I'm really glad I wasn't able to just fast-track myself through only CS classes and get out of there without any creative work or serious writing experience.

coliveira 3y ago
> My non-major classes were some of the most fun Outside the US, college education is not the place where you go to have fun and finding interesting stuff. It is considered to be your first professional duty as an adult. You can have all the fun you want outside classes.
- r2_pilot 3y ago
  Maybe that's one of the reasons the United States has such well-regarded colleges, because play and work combined provide a stronger foundation than either alone.
- isykt 3y ago
  This is a good system to create mindless drones who suppress their own ambitions and interest and toil away until they die. Fuck that.
  - kdmccormick 3y ago

conductr 3y ago

A lot of people don’t actually work in their field of study after they graduate. A quick google say only 46% do. So I think some general education is in order and valuable. I do think they could speed up the time to get deep in your major courses. But I changed majors 3 times, each change cost me time since I’m just basically randomly guessing what I think I might have some interest in that might also provide a decent life/career. Trying to plan out your whole life at ages 18-20 seems ludicrous to me still and I don’t feel like I was equipped with enough information to really know what possibilities were out there in the real world.

sinkasapa 3y ago

It depends on your values I suppose but as someone who teaches a course that many take for general education requirements I'd say that the majority enter my course not knowing basic things about the world, like that American Sign Language is a language and not just people making gestures at one another. They also believe weird things they learned off the Internet, like "Eskimos" having 1000 words for snow or some tribe having no concept of time because they don't have a past tense. That is just the tip of the iceberg. Students in their early 20s often haven't even developed the general bullshit detecting skills to question a lot of this stuff. If they don't learn these skills somewhere they may never do so. I know it sounds kind of harsh but it is possible to get a degree in engineering or English literature and still be super stupid outside of a narrow field. I think that is bad for society. It creates a lot of problems when people don't get educated in the basics. It makes them poorer critical thinkers. It is easier to take advantage of them and they may be part of something hurtful or destructive without understanding why it is a bad thing. A university that sends out the equivalent of flat earthers and anti-vaxxers in droves is worthless. Who cares if people are getting jobs right out of college if they may actively be working against the public good in the long run due to ignorance?

Eumenes 3y ago

I agree 1000%. I've made this argument numerous times here before and always get push back. By the time you reach college, you've repeated the general education requirements several times over. Not only does it hamper your ability to 'move on' and start your career, its ridiculous to assume university systems know what makes up a 'well rounded' individual. If anything, the higher education system, and its staff, couldn't be farther from well rounded. They live in superbly isolated bubbles. There is some unique psychology at play when it comes to defending the status quo of the US college system as well, esp. from the college educated. There's almost a holy mysticism associated with higher education. Any push to change the system, is dumbing it down, and anti-intellectual. Its always been this way, we cannot change it. I suffered through 4 years and mountain high debt, so you must as well. But ... we can discuss making it free and/or cheaper, but we cannot assume any change to the system. My guess is the systems are overly bureaucratic and corrupt - the administrators couldn't justify their compensation packages or tuition cost with smaller/less staff. The endowments would decrease. Senior roles at universities are places for executives and politicians to coast into retirement. Not very sexy when the system is neutered. Public colleges, and some private, operate large employee unions, which offer consistent kickbacks to political campaigns.