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Is this the normal course of things? "We are now beginning the process of consultation on initial reductions." I'm not in the know.. but it comes off as if th

Is this the normal course of things? "We are now beginning the process of consultation on initial reductions." I'm not in the know.. but it comes off as if they have no idea what they're doing. You'd think you'd decide who you are gunna lay off before announcing it..? And they will be laying people off for two years straight? Seems like it'd just tank the moral of the whole place. I thought companies generally rip the bandaid off and do it all very quickly - and have a concrete plan before an announcement

NoboruWataya 3y ago
In the EU you are generally required to inform and consult with staff in advance of large-scale redundancies. https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/human-resources/employment-contracts/redundancies/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/human-resources/employ...
alibarber 3y ago
In Finland there is a mandated period of 'consultation' - usually at least 2 weeks long, between company and employees (or their representatives) when such things happen. I don't know if the actual term in Finnish is supposed to sound as euphemistic as the English one - but at this point it's pretty much decided.
- m00dy 3y ago
  Is Nokia still a Finnish company ?
  - dagw 3y ago
    Nokia has always been a Finnish company. They've just licensed their name out (via a daughter company) for use on phones now.
    - m00dy 3y ago
      I thought Microsoft bought it long time ago and it became US company then. But, I think it is not the case anymore.
      - dagw 3y ago
        Microsoft didn't buy Nokia the company, despite what a lot of journalists made it sound like at the time. They bought Nokia's mobile phone division and related businesses. With the purchase they also got 10-year exclusive right to use the Nokia name on phones.
- hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
  "Muutosneuvottelut", which literally translates to "change negotiations", is basically the Finnish way of saying "mass layoffs and corporate restructuring incoming". Not the same thing as what you're describing but I find it funny in the same way.
- thisisit 3y ago
  > In Finland there is a mandated period of 'consultation' Those consultations have been going on sometime now. This is nearly over. Overall, this is just plain stupid wording.
ogjojo 3y ago
Don’t quote me on this but it might have something to do with Finnish law. Don’t know how that applies internationally if at all.
dagw 3y ago
You'd think you'd decide who you are gunna lay off before announcing it They almost certainly have. The consultation process is basically negotiating with the unions over what sort of package they have to offer to the laid off workers to avoid the unions being difficult about the whole thing.
mschuster91 3y ago
> I thought companies generally rip the bandaid off and do it all very quickly - and have a concrete plan before an announcement In the US yes, and companies are free to ruin the lives of thousands of people overnight in most states thanks to at-will employment. In Europe, where Nokia is based, companies have to actually follow laws. No firing of individuals without cause, mass layoffs outside of bankruptcy have minimum terms (in Germany, you have up to 7 months until your employment actually terminates), and usually employers have to broker deals with unions, worker representatives (Germany: Betriebsrat) and government / unemployment insurance schemes as well. As a result, there's no need to "rip bandaids off" - employees know that even if there's talks of layoffs going on, their lives won't be upended randomly.
- contrarian1234 3y ago
  "companies have to actually follow laws“ What? Nokia won't follow laws in other countries? "No firing of individuals without cause" That's generally the distinction between firing and laying off. Layed off employees generally get unemployment. "7 months until your employment actually terminates" You continue working at a company that you will have to leave? What incentives do you have to keep putting in any effort? Doesn't this lead to massive amount of corporate theft? In the US you are typically "shown the door" when your employment is terminated to minimize the possibility of disgruntled ex-employees taking corporate IP with them. "employees know that even if there's talks of layoffs going on, their lives won't be upended randomly" That honestly seems just worse for everyone involved. Aren't you in a weird limbo for months/years on end where you don't know if your position will be terminated? It seems horrible for moral. The most talented people would probably not want to put up with the uncertainty and will leave while unions are negotiating
  - doikor 3y ago
    > What incentives do you have to keep putting in any effort? Your paycheck? You can still be fired on the spot if you are not doing your job. Though it might require a warning depending on the jurisdiction. > Aren't you in a weird limbo for months/years on end where you don't know if your position will be terminated? At least in Finland the legal requirement for the negotiations is 2 weeks and usually they take exactly that long. It can be even shorter if both sides agree. The 2 week period also works well in a lot of low paying fields where you are paid every 2 weeks. Basically meaning that everyone knows they are getting their next paycheck in full (outside of a proper bankruptcy which is pretty much the only way out of these rules)
moffkalast 3y ago
I think that's the part where they bring in consultants to ask each person "What exactly would you say you do here?"
user_named 3y ago
What an ignorant, obnoxious comment
thisisit 3y ago
> but it comes off as if they have no idea what they're doing Yep. The whole company has been like that. Just look at the rebranding comment someone in this thread.

NoboruWataya 3y ago

In the EU you are generally required to inform and consult with staff in advance of large-scale redundancies. https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/human-resources/employment-contracts/redundancies/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/human-resources/employ...

alibarber 3y ago

In Finland there is a mandated period of 'consultation' - usually at least 2 weeks long, between company and employees (or their representatives) when such things happen. I don't know if the actual term in Finnish is supposed to sound as euphemistic as the English one - but at this point it's pretty much decided.

m00dy 3y ago
Is Nokia still a Finnish company ?
- dagw 3y ago
  Nokia has always been a Finnish company. They've just licensed their name out (via a daughter company) for use on phones now.
  - m00dy 3y ago
    I thought Microsoft bought it long time ago and it became US company then. But, I think it is not the case anymore.
    - dagw 3y ago
      Microsoft didn't buy Nokia the company, despite what a lot of journalists made it sound like at the time. They bought Nokia's mobile phone division and related businesses. With the purchase they also got 10-year exclusive right to use the Nokia name on phones.
hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
"Muutosneuvottelut", which literally translates to "change negotiations", is basically the Finnish way of saying "mass layoffs and corporate restructuring incoming". Not the same thing as what you're describing but I find it funny in the same way.
thisisit 3y ago
> In Finland there is a mandated period of 'consultation' Those consultations have been going on sometime now. This is nearly over. Overall, this is just plain stupid wording.

ogjojo 3y ago

Don’t quote me on this but it might have something to do with Finnish law. Don’t know how that applies internationally if at all.

dagw 3y ago

You'd think you'd decide who you are gunna lay off before announcing it They almost certainly have. The consultation process is basically negotiating with the unions over what sort of package they have to offer to the laid off workers to avoid the unions being difficult about the whole thing.

mschuster91 3y ago

> I thought companies generally rip the bandaid off and do it all very quickly - and have a concrete plan before an announcement In the US yes, and companies are free to ruin the lives of thousands of people overnight in most states thanks to at-will employment. In Europe, where Nokia is based, companies have to actually follow laws. No firing of individuals without cause, mass layoffs outside of bankruptcy have minimum terms (in Germany, you have up to 7 months until your employment actually terminates), and usually employers have to broker deals with unions, worker representatives (Germany: Betriebsrat) and government / unemployment insurance schemes as well. As a result, there's no need to "rip bandaids off" - employees know that even if there's talks of layoffs going on, their lives won't be upended randomly.

contrarian1234 3y ago
"companies have to actually follow laws“ What? Nokia won't follow laws in other countries? "No firing of individuals without cause" That's generally the distinction between firing and laying off. Layed off employees generally get unemployment. "7 months until your employment actually terminates" You continue working at a company that you will have to leave? What incentives do you have to keep putting in any effort? Doesn't this lead to massive amount of corporate theft? In the US you are typically "shown the door" when your employment is terminated to minimize the possibility of disgruntled ex-employees taking corporate IP with them. "employees know that even if there's talks of layoffs going on, their lives won't be upended randomly" That honestly seems just worse for everyone involved. Aren't you in a weird limbo for months/years on end where you don't know if your position will be terminated? It seems horrible for moral. The most talented people would probably not want to put up with the uncertainty and will leave while unions are negotiating
- doikor 3y ago
  > What incentives do you have to keep putting in any effort? Your paycheck? You can still be fired on the spot if you are not doing your job. Though it might require a warning depending on the jurisdiction. > Aren't you in a weird limbo for months/years on end where you don't know if your position will be terminated? At least in Finland the legal requirement for the negotiations is 2 weeks and usually they take exactly that long. It can be even shorter if both sides agree. The 2 week period also works well in a lot of low paying fields where you are paid every 2 weeks. Basically meaning that everyone knows they are getting their next paycheck in full (outside of a proper bankruptcy which is pretty much the only way out of these rules)

moffkalast 3y ago

I think that's the part where they bring in consultants to ask each person "What exactly would you say you do here?"

user_named 3y ago

What an ignorant, obnoxious comment

thisisit 3y ago

> but it comes off as if they have no idea what they're doing Yep. The whole company has been like that. Just look at the rebranding comment someone in this thread.