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>That’s right: I teach courses in Python and Pandas. Never mind that the first is a programming language and the second is a library for data analysis in Python

>That’s right: I teach courses in Python and Pandas. Never mind that the first is a programming language and the second is a library for data analysis in Python. Meta’s AI system noticed that I was talking about Python and Pandas, assumed that I was talking about the animals (not the technology), and banned me. If this is true, that is insanely embarrassing for a company that purports to be a sophisticated programmatic advertising platform.

reuven 3y ago
Yes, indeed.
random_coder 3y ago
What's wrong with talking about animals anyway? Truly bizarre.
- petargyurov 3y ago
  I'm assuming something to do with the illegal trading of exotic/endangered species; mentioning pythons and pandas, alongside whatever wording was used to sell the course probably triggered the bot to flag it. That's the only explanation I have.
- folli 3y ago
  Perhaps you're not allowed to use Facebook for selling animals. Which would be sensible IMO
  - quickthrower2 3y ago
    Selling pets should be fine?
    - dspillett 3y ago
      Depends on local laws. Also it can be difficult to reliably distinguish between an individual passing on a pet, a properly licensed breeder selling animals, and a bad actor doing the same (selling exotic animals, being an unlicensed breeder in jurisdictions where this is not permitted (generally or for particular animals), etc.). For this reason many advertising companies simply have a blanket ban on advertising any animal trading. Being more selective potentially leaves them open to legal issues if the selection process makes a bad decision and lets something illegal through, and that risk is not worth taking in order to allow (and therefore take a cut from) the more legitimate trade.
    - iopq 3y ago
      Just as long as you're not selling pandas, which is what the AI thought he was doing
    - isleyaardvark 3y ago
      There are many laws regarding pet ownership and for good reason, if not involving an invasive species there's also animal cruelty issues. Pandas and other exotic animals need specialized care which a typical vet will not be able to provide. And that's if they aren't dangerous. Then there's the puppy mills, which is a huge issue on its own.
      - mcpackieh 3y ago
        All existing pandas are owned by the PRC so the chance of somebody selling a panda for real, vs selling some sort of panda themed toy/book/etc, is virtually nil. No human would make this mistake; their filter is braindead.
        zdragnar 3y ago
        Pythons, on the other hand, are often (illegally) sold, and can be extremely difficult to eradicate as an invasive species. Florida's Everglades are in trouble because people buy Burmese pythons and release them when they grow too big to handle. That's not to defend Facebook's approach to ad management whatsoever. I definitely agree that it is far too blunt a tool for the problem. Pretending the problem doesn't exist, however, because one example is unlikely is just intellectually dishonest.
        mcpackieh 3y ago
        That is true that the python trade is somewhat problematic and is accordingly regulated, but there are also a lot of people who are legally selling pythons on facebook and evidently don't get banned for it. Search "facebook python breeder" and they're easy to find. My conclusion is that the filtering system is totally and inexplicably capricious. A braindead computer program making indefensible decisions that it probably can't even justify to facebook employees themselves, let alone to the people it's banning. Maybe mentioning pythons or pandas alone would be fine, but both together gets you classified as an exotic smuggler dealing in literal bears? Who knows. Probably not even facebook knows.
      - jstarfish 3y ago
    - bombcar 3y ago
      Selling animals is highly regulated in much of the world, which is why you see “free animals but pay for the shots” kind of things here and there.
- dspillett 3y ago
  Depends in what context you are talking about the animals. Trade in animals is covered by a number of laws¹ intended to protect them, and fb has a blanket ban on advertising trading animals. This is a perfectly logical thing to declare wrong. What has happened here, most likely, is that a right thing (selling courses about Python and Pandas, the technical things of that name not the animals) has been misidentified as that wrong thing, by an automated system that doesn't understand that two concepts can have the same names, with no practical way for the affected advertiser to appeal or even query the automated decision. Basically this is a variant of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem. -- [1] Morals too, of course, but companies like FB work based on laws/regulations² rather than based on what is considered [im]moral. [2] or based on working around laws/regulations!
  - coding123 3y ago
    That department should upgrade to a modern LLM which would do a better job than many humans in understanding the context of python and pandas.
    - dspillett 3y ago
      There would still be need for some sort of appeal/correction process, which doesn't seem to exist in a useful state now and would be required no matter what automated system you put in place.
      - coding123 3y ago
        I think if the front line bot was an LLM, rather than what is probably regex, they would probably have more true positives and less false positives that would potentially allow them to have a real person handling the exceptions - then train the LLM on the exception for the next release.
- jaketheguy 3y ago
  Just guessing here, but if the senteces sounded like "how to use pandas to help you in work" AI could have decided that you're going to use a cute bear to lay bricks for you. Plus the "exotic animals", as someone else mentioned.
  - EmilioMartinez 3y ago
    Makes me wonder what's the worst possible phrasing "Master Python and Pandas, make them work for you, attack new challanges, earn good money"
    - schoen 3y ago
      "How to use the innards of Python and Pandas"? "If you find yourself fighting with Python and Pandas, I'll help you improve your technique"? "Using Python and Pandas in the wild"? "10 unexpected uses for Python and Pandas in the food and apparel industries"? "Breaking all the rules for Python imports"? "How to replace your whole ecosystem with just Python and Pandas"? "Put Python to work on the family farm"?
      - dale_glass 3y ago
        I asked GPT-4: There's a book called "Using Python and Pandas in the wild". What do you think it's about? "Using Python and Pandas in the wild" likely refers to the application of the Python programming language and the Pandas library in real-world scenarios or practical use cases.
        bumbledraven 3y ago
        Even text-davinci-003 nails this (via OpenAI Playground). Prompt: > The newly-released book "Using Python and Pandas in the wild" discusses Response: > the application of Python and Pandas for data analysis, cleaning, and transformation. It focuses on the fundamentals of Pandas, how to use it to explore and manipulate data, and offer guidance for more advanced topics, such as building data visualizations and machine learning models. Readers will also get an overview of the best practices for working with time-series data, unsupervised learning, and natural language processing. The book is designed to be a comprehensive resource for anyone who wants to learn how to use Python and Pandas for data analysis.
- rmbyrro 3y ago
  You can talk about them on FB, just can't advertise trading them.
ayhanfuat 3y ago
Sounds like speculation to me. Anything to back that up?
- ascendantlogic 3y ago
  What would be the alternative here? Meta bans people from selling live animals or bans them from selling programming courses?
  - ayhanfuat 3y ago
    I don't think it is stated anywhere that the ban was the result of the thing that was being advertised. > This review found inauthentic behavior or violations of our Advertising Policies or Community Guidelines There could be thousands of other things.
    - ascendantlogic 3y ago
      Sure would be nice if they'd actually lay out what rule(s) were broken then, I guess.
    - colpabar 3y ago
      > There could be thousands of other things. Sounds like speculation to me. Anything to back that up?
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- Ensorceled 3y ago
  Clearly it’s speculation, this entire thread is speculation because Meta won’t actually tell anyone why they were banned.
- bertil 3y ago
  The author might be speculating, but I worked on that team and his diagnostic is very likely exact.
rmbyrro 3y ago
I think it'd be embarrassing if the tech was making this sort of mistake in a high % of cases. Anecdotally, that's the only account I've read of this kind of error. Not defending Facebook, they ought to deploy humans in the loop. But saying the tech is embarrassing misses how machine learning works. It will always make mistakes, and the kind of mistakes that seem silly from a human perspective. That's because, well, these systems aren't human.
- bertil 3y ago
  Those mistakes are systematic. I worked on the team that dealt with that, and you pretty much can’t mention exotic animals by name if you sell books, movies, fan art, etc.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  >that's the only account I've read of this kind of error. it's still anecdotal, but the author did mention that they went to FB/LinkedIn and they got a pretty swift answer. If nothing else, it sounds like it wasn't a unique case (or the author has a very tight knit group of tech isntructors).
  - rmbyrro 3y ago
    What I mean is, there are certainly a lot more than 2 or 3 individuals or businesses that have ever advertised on FB for Python and Pandas (programming) stuff. Courses, recruiting, books, events, commercial libraries, etc. If this kind of error was systematic, no one would be able to run these ads. We'd have certainly already seen a public outcry about it. That doesn't seem to be the case, here (yet)?..
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      I did leave the possibility of "tight nit group of tech instructors". With that said, it's not impossible for this to be a systematic issue considering (theoretically, I don't have formal evidence) 1. Facebook may not be the best place to reach out to the tech community 2. There may simply be too many positives (so, actual exotic animal trading) for it to be worth fixing the few false positives. And the author lacked the financial worth to properly fix the issue. 3. At the end of the day, the issue was not resolved. Leaving the potential next victim wanting to talk about Python laying in wake. I subscribe to #2 personally.
hrisng 3y ago
I wanted to run ads for my plant nursery. Their bot suspended me before I can even run my first ads. They don't tell you the reason why and you have one chance to dispute. Then it's another automated response, again, not telling you the reason, you're permanently blocked after that. Their system make it feel like they actively punish legit but inexperienced business owner while letting all sort of scam running around in the wild.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

reuven 3y ago

Yes, indeed.

random_coder 3y ago

What's wrong with talking about animals anyway? Truly bizarre.

petargyurov 3y ago
I'm assuming something to do with the illegal trading of exotic/endangered species; mentioning pythons and pandas, alongside whatever wording was used to sell the course probably triggered the bot to flag it. That's the only explanation I have.
folli 3y ago
Perhaps you're not allowed to use Facebook for selling animals. Which would be sensible IMO
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  Selling pets should be fine?
  - dspillett 3y ago
    Depends on local laws. Also it can be difficult to reliably distinguish between an individual passing on a pet, a properly licensed breeder selling animals, and a bad actor doing the same (selling exotic animals, being an unlicensed breeder in jurisdictions where this is not permitted (generally or for particular animals), etc.). For this reason many advertising companies simply have a blanket ban on advertising any animal trading. Being more selective potentially leaves them open to legal issues if the selection process makes a bad decision and lets something illegal through, and that risk is not worth taking in order to allow (and therefore take a cut from) the more legitimate trade.
  - iopq 3y ago
    Just as long as you're not selling pandas, which is what the AI thought he was doing
  - isleyaardvark 3y ago
    There are many laws regarding pet ownership and for good reason, if not involving an invasive species there's also animal cruelty issues. Pandas and other exotic animals need specialized care which a typical vet will not be able to provide. And that's if they aren't dangerous. Then there's the puppy mills, which is a huge issue on its own.
    - mcpackieh 3y ago
      All existing pandas are owned by the PRC so the chance of somebody selling a panda for real, vs selling some sort of panda themed toy/book/etc, is virtually nil. No human would make this mistake; their filter is braindead.
      - zdragnar 3y ago
        Pythons, on the other hand, are often (illegally) sold, and can be extremely difficult to eradicate as an invasive species. Florida's Everglades are in trouble because people buy Burmese pythons and release them when they grow too big to handle. That's not to defend Facebook's approach to ad management whatsoever. I definitely agree that it is far too blunt a tool for the problem. Pretending the problem doesn't exist, however, because one example is unlikely is just intellectually dishonest.
        mcpackieh 3y ago
        That is true that the python trade is somewhat problematic and is accordingly regulated, but there are also a lot of people who are legally selling pythons on facebook and evidently don't get banned for it. Search "facebook python breeder" and they're easy to find. My conclusion is that the filtering system is totally and inexplicably capricious. A braindead computer program making indefensible decisions that it probably can't even justify to facebook employees themselves, let alone to the people it's banning. Maybe mentioning pythons or pandas alone would be fine, but both together gets you classified as an exotic smuggler dealing in literal bears? Who knows. Probably not even facebook knows.
    - jstarfish 3y ago
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Selling animals is highly regulated in much of the world, which is why you see “free animals but pay for the shots” kind of things here and there.
dspillett 3y ago
Depends in what context you are talking about the animals. Trade in animals is covered by a number of laws¹ intended to protect them, and fb has a blanket ban on advertising trading animals. This is a perfectly logical thing to declare wrong. What has happened here, most likely, is that a right thing (selling courses about Python and Pandas, the technical things of that name not the animals) has been misidentified as that wrong thing, by an automated system that doesn't understand that two concepts can have the same names, with no practical way for the affected advertiser to appeal or even query the automated decision. Basically this is a variant of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem. -- [1] Morals too, of course, but companies like FB work based on laws/regulations² rather than based on what is considered [im]moral. [2] or based on working around laws/regulations!
- coding123 3y ago
  That department should upgrade to a modern LLM which would do a better job than many humans in understanding the context of python and pandas.
  - dspillett 3y ago
    There would still be need for some sort of appeal/correction process, which doesn't seem to exist in a useful state now and would be required no matter what automated system you put in place.
    - coding123 3y ago
      I think if the front line bot was an LLM, rather than what is probably regex, they would probably have more true positives and less false positives that would potentially allow them to have a real person handling the exceptions - then train the LLM on the exception for the next release.
jaketheguy 3y ago
Just guessing here, but if the senteces sounded like "how to use pandas to help you in work" AI could have decided that you're going to use a cute bear to lay bricks for you. Plus the "exotic animals", as someone else mentioned.
- EmilioMartinez 3y ago
  Makes me wonder what's the worst possible phrasing "Master Python and Pandas, make them work for you, attack new challanges, earn good money"
  - schoen 3y ago
    "How to use the innards of Python and Pandas"? "If you find yourself fighting with Python and Pandas, I'll help you improve your technique"? "Using Python and Pandas in the wild"? "10 unexpected uses for Python and Pandas in the food and apparel industries"? "Breaking all the rules for Python imports"? "How to replace your whole ecosystem with just Python and Pandas"? "Put Python to work on the family farm"?
    - dale_glass 3y ago
      I asked GPT-4: There's a book called "Using Python and Pandas in the wild". What do you think it's about? "Using Python and Pandas in the wild" likely refers to the application of the Python programming language and the Pandas library in real-world scenarios or practical use cases.
      - bumbledraven 3y ago
        Even text-davinci-003 nails this (via OpenAI Playground). Prompt: > The newly-released book "Using Python and Pandas in the wild" discusses Response: > the application of Python and Pandas for data analysis, cleaning, and transformation. It focuses on the fundamentals of Pandas, how to use it to explore and manipulate data, and offer guidance for more advanced topics, such as building data visualizations and machine learning models. Readers will also get an overview of the best practices for working with time-series data, unsupervised learning, and natural language processing. The book is designed to be a comprehensive resource for anyone who wants to learn how to use Python and Pandas for data analysis.
rmbyrro 3y ago
You can talk about them on FB, just can't advertise trading them.

ayhanfuat 3y ago

Sounds like speculation to me. Anything to back that up?

ascendantlogic 3y ago
What would be the alternative here? Meta bans people from selling live animals or bans them from selling programming courses?
- ayhanfuat 3y ago
  I don't think it is stated anywhere that the ban was the result of the thing that was being advertised. > This review found inauthentic behavior or violations of our Advertising Policies or Community Guidelines There could be thousands of other things.
  - ascendantlogic 3y ago
    Sure would be nice if they'd actually lay out what rule(s) were broken then, I guess.
  - colpabar 3y ago
    > There could be thousands of other things. Sounds like speculation to me. Anything to back that up?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
Ensorceled 3y ago
Clearly it’s speculation, this entire thread is speculation because Meta won’t actually tell anyone why they were banned.
bertil 3y ago
The author might be speculating, but I worked on that team and his diagnostic is very likely exact.

rmbyrro 3y ago

I think it'd be embarrassing if the tech was making this sort of mistake in a high % of cases. Anecdotally, that's the only account I've read of this kind of error. Not defending Facebook, they ought to deploy humans in the loop. But saying the tech is embarrassing misses how machine learning works. It will always make mistakes, and the kind of mistakes that seem silly from a human perspective. That's because, well, these systems aren't human.

bertil 3y ago
Those mistakes are systematic. I worked on the team that dealt with that, and you pretty much can’t mention exotic animals by name if you sell books, movies, fan art, etc.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
>that's the only account I've read of this kind of error. it's still anecdotal, but the author did mention that they went to FB/LinkedIn and they got a pretty swift answer. If nothing else, it sounds like it wasn't a unique case (or the author has a very tight knit group of tech isntructors).
- rmbyrro 3y ago
  What I mean is, there are certainly a lot more than 2 or 3 individuals or businesses that have ever advertised on FB for Python and Pandas (programming) stuff. Courses, recruiting, books, events, commercial libraries, etc. If this kind of error was systematic, no one would be able to run these ads. We'd have certainly already seen a public outcry about it. That doesn't seem to be the case, here (yet)?..
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    I did leave the possibility of "tight nit group of tech instructors". With that said, it's not impossible for this to be a systematic issue considering (theoretically, I don't have formal evidence) 1. Facebook may not be the best place to reach out to the tech community 2. There may simply be too many positives (so, actual exotic animal trading) for it to be worth fixing the few false positives. And the author lacked the financial worth to properly fix the issue. 3. At the end of the day, the issue was not resolved. Leaving the potential next victim wanting to talk about Python laying in wake. I subscribe to #2 personally.

hrisng 3y ago

I wanted to run ads for my plant nursery. Their bot suspended me before I can even run my first ads. They don't tell you the reason why and you have one chance to dispute. Then it's another automated response, again, not telling you the reason, you're permanently blocked after that. Their system make it feel like they actively punish legit but inexperienced business owner while letting all sort of scam running around in the wild.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]