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> > Jews wouldn't live in Hebron without being religious extremists. > Just them wouldn't be so bad, but from what I read, the IDF is on the act, too? This is

> > Jews wouldn't live in Hebron without being religious extremists. > Just them wouldn't be so bad, but from what I read, the IDF is on the act, too? This is problematic. Over the past couple of decades the religious right became more dominant in Israeli society. We call them the knitted yamaka's since that's their signature head wear. They slowly worked their way into the IDF as liberals were growing tired and reduced their service due to the long occupation which is abhorrent to most of us. Still, it's an Army. You can't choose your deployment and you can get placed in Hebron even if you think Jews have no right to be there. You must follow these orders since they aren't illegal. That's where the gray area comes in. Technically, the army is there to keep the peace. Realistically I've seen videos where settlers purposely taunt Palestinians next to soldiers knowing that if push comes to shove a soldier will ultimately pick their side. This is even more pronounced with the religious right soldiers which can be easily identifiable. > that there is prevalence of Islamophobia Yes. The Hamas is calling for a common uprising. Arab citizens have many fair grievances but most of them don't want violence. OTOH there are terrible cases there. An Arab bicycle shop owner donated bicycles for Jewish children who survived that massacre. His reward was that his neighbor torched his store... So there's a lot of hate and a lot of it is hyped which makes people cautious and distrustful. > Glad. I sincerely hope they haven't changed their views post Oct 7, and continue to take a long-term non-violent view. It's not a non-violent view for most. There are pacifists but they are rare. It's about a separation between the actual enemy and the people who might not like Israel, but aren't an enemy. There are great organizations like: https://www.btselem.org/ https://www.btselem.org/ https://www.ahimlaneshek.org/ https://www.ahimlaneshek.org/ https://peacenow.org.il/ https://peacenow.org.il/ And many others like them. > This makes the situation in the West Bank even more idiotic from the Israeli PoV. I read that if Israel orders evacuation, settlers are not entitled to compensation (like Gaza and Sinai settlers were)? So, this can still be undone, though, I suspect armed-settlers would to make this a riot-free affair. Every time settlements were cleared it turned into a clusterfuck. Soldiers were attacked violently etc. I get the trauma of being ripped from your home... But you can't attack your own army. The supreme court provided increased compensation in the case of settlers who were removed from Gaza. But it's not about the money for these people. It's an ideal and that's something far more scary. > inform Israel that a majority of the 2b muslims are watching and they won't like war because in this charged conflict This feeds into the "we're alone in this" mentality and the need to "show strength". I don't think there's a logical and sensible argument to be made. I read a great piece in the local paper where the author analyzed the problematic nature of "the day after Hamas". The comments were mostly insulting to him and very militant. I find that when I talk to people individually most of them have the capacity to understand the nuance of the situation. But a mob mentality and siloed communities create a more violent outcome. > In which case, they'd have to continue to perfect the Iron Wall and continue to work towards fully-autonomous weapons and war machines as deterrence. This outcome would of course suck for Palestine. This is a scary dystopian future. You asked about what "their" end goal is, I wouldn't be surprised if it looks like that. I hope we can avoid that by kicking out Netanyahu and his cronies but this has proven more difficult than one would imagine.

ignoramous 3y ago
Thanks. > Still, it's an Army. It beehoves the Palestines to build a strong military (which they can't without a State) and not hide like cowards lacking any code of ethics or morality. Is it correct to say Israel won't like that, because they prefer Hamas/Hizb-style millitia and collective punishment over a recognised military (and not a puppet "security force" like the NSF)? If true, do Israelis realise this and despite the government for it? > This is even more pronounced with the religious right soldiers which can be easily identifiable. I've seen videos, yeah. Not pretty at all. The Iron Wall is a great deterrence, but rebels would always want to overcome it in an act of defiance, no matter the cost. And when they do, the terror they unleash is not justifiable by any means, but all too predictable, nevertheless. That the rebels who are (or consider themselves) victims of "slow terror" (of racist elements of the IDF) would inflict more terror is so ironic, that I feel I can almost understand why the Israeli appartus acts ruthlessly (some might say, maniacal) like it does in face of whatever it perceives to be antisemitism (given the woe it wrought on them at the hands of the Europeans; though, now the wrath has been successfully teleported onto the muslims of the Levant). > So there's a lot of hate and a lot of it is hyped which makes people cautious and distrustful. Normalisation efforts are a great starting point. I'm surprised Saudia is so further ahead in that process. That is a watershed moment regardless of the plight of Palestine. Hopefully, we see more of it. Though, I think the US military's overbearing reach in the region (in Kuwait, Iraq, Turkey, Egypt) is doing more harm than good, since as far as the Palestine is concerned, it is a religious issue that will not go away, even if Palestine goes away. Speaking as a Muslim, Al Quds (Old Jerusalem), Al Majdal (in Ashkelon), and Hebron will always remind us of what once was. Time will tell. May be time will heal all wounds. There just so much agony here for what's a small parcel of land. Albeit, important land to both the peoples. Thank Abraham's God, unlike Jesus (SA), Muhammad (SA) wasn't born in that same parcel of land. > There are pacifists but they are rare. Norman Finkelstein, a very controversial figure, said in a talk at University of Waterloo (2008) that the issue of Palestine is a simple one but that the US had made it complicated for whatever it stands to gain (I wonder what that is, I have no clue). Finkelstein says, most of the world (via UN) agrees that Israel should rapidly work towards as 2 state solution, when only US doesn't and it consistently vetos most resolutions (some 280+ that have been brought against Israel, which is an astoundingly high number). What do you make of this stance (which comes from someone who's considered 'an enemy of Israel'). > It's an ideal and that's something far more scary. Well, Israel eventually split from Judea... Is that the kind of ideal settlers harbour long term? > But a mob mentality and siloed communities create a more violent outcome. The doxxing of people and getting them fired for what they consider to be antisemitism or Nazi-like behaviour makes me so fearful. I can almost describe as being terrorized to even talk about this topic, lest I say something stupid (I'm being very careful what I'm writing here, but I know I might have slipped, because it is possible to bad faith argue everything one doesn't agree with). These initiatives, from what I can tell, have backing from some very influential, well connected, and wealthy people. Another theme I see on the Israeli tech Twitter, is the insistence on convincing the American public about the war. Not sure if propoganda is the right term, but it is pretty close to it. The constant messaging around "the West is next", "our 9/11", "Hamas is ISIS" (which aren't wrong), and the subtle flaring up of Islamophobia ("jihadi death cult", "culture of darkness", "barbaric people"), or the exploitation of Western guilt ("more Jews killed since the Shoah", "never again", "free Palestine = extermination of Jews") is a bit unnerving to watch. I'm sure the Jewish people think it is fully warranted (I wouldn't know, not many groups were subject to 2000 years of persecution), but it is a bit jarring (and at times seems hysterical) when you're in their cross hairs. This time, it is the entire muslim population that is, apparently. Also, some folks on the Israeli tech Twitter are quite simply and incomprehensibly incapable of viewing the conditions in Gaza without any semblance of empathy or sympathy. I consider tech to be fairly liberal and left leaning and so this totally caught me totally off-guard the first few days. I understand the rage, but I'm mostly shocked by the kind of views they ascribe to in light of extracting vengeance. > This is a scary dystopian future. If so, I wonder why the US supports such a future unconditionally? On the other hand, the political and civil unrest in the Middle East for what happens if they pull support, is also quite unimaginable. May be China can step in with fresh ideas (though, Israel might say they're antisemites).

ignoramous 3y ago

Thanks. > Still, it's an Army. It beehoves the Palestines to build a strong military (which they can't without a State) and not hide like cowards lacking any code of ethics or morality. Is it correct to say Israel won't like that, because they prefer Hamas/Hizb-style millitia and collective punishment over a recognised military (and not a puppet "security force" like the NSF)? If true, do Israelis realise this and despite the government for it? > This is even more pronounced with the religious right soldiers which can be easily identifiable. I've seen videos, yeah. Not pretty at all. The Iron Wall is a great deterrence, but rebels would always want to overcome it in an act of defiance, no matter the cost. And when they do, the terror they unleash is not justifiable by any means, but all too predictable, nevertheless. That the rebels who are (or consider themselves) victims of "slow terror" (of racist elements of the IDF) would inflict more terror is so ironic, that I feel I can almost understand why the Israeli appartus acts ruthlessly (some might say, maniacal) like it does in face of whatever it perceives to be antisemitism (given the woe it wrought on them at the hands of the Europeans; though, now the wrath has been successfully teleported onto the muslims of the Levant). > So there's a lot of hate and a lot of it is hyped which makes people cautious and distrustful. Normalisation efforts are a great starting point. I'm surprised Saudia is so further ahead in that process. That is a watershed moment regardless of the plight of Palestine. Hopefully, we see more of it. Though, I think the US military's overbearing reach in the region (in Kuwait, Iraq, Turkey, Egypt) is doing more harm than good, since as far as the Palestine is concerned, it is a religious issue that will not go away, even if Palestine goes away. Speaking as a Muslim, Al Quds (Old Jerusalem), Al Majdal (in Ashkelon), and Hebron will always remind us of what once was. Time will tell. May be time will heal all wounds. There just so much agony here for what's a small parcel of land. Albeit, important land to both the peoples. Thank Abraham's God, unlike Jesus (SA), Muhammad (SA) wasn't born in that same parcel of land. > There are pacifists but they are rare. Norman Finkelstein, a very controversial figure, said in a talk at University of Waterloo (2008) that the issue of Palestine is a simple one but that the US had made it complicated for whatever it stands to gain (I wonder what that is, I have no clue). Finkelstein says, most of the world (via UN) agrees that Israel should rapidly work towards as 2 state solution, when only US doesn't and it consistently vetos most resolutions (some 280+ that have been brought against Israel, which is an astoundingly high number). What do you make of this stance (which comes from someone who's considered 'an enemy of Israel'). > It's an ideal and that's something far more scary. Well, Israel eventually split from Judea... Is that the kind of ideal settlers harbour long term? > But a mob mentality and siloed communities create a more violent outcome. The doxxing of people and getting them fired for what they consider to be antisemitism or Nazi-like behaviour makes me so fearful. I can almost describe as being terrorized to even talk about this topic, lest I say something stupid (I'm being very careful what I'm writing here, but I know I might have slipped, because it is possible to bad faith argue everything one doesn't agree with). These initiatives, from what I can tell, have backing from some very influential, well connected, and wealthy people. Another theme I see on the Israeli tech Twitter, is the insistence on convincing the American public about the war. Not sure if propoganda is the right term, but it is pretty close to it. The constant messaging around "the West is next", "our 9/11", "Hamas is ISIS" (which aren't wrong), and the subtle flaring up of Islamophobia ("jihadi death cult", "culture of darkness", "barbaric people"), or the exploitation of Western guilt ("more Jews killed since the Shoah", "never again", "free Palestine = extermination of Jews") is a bit unnerving to watch. I'm sure the Jewish people think it is fully warranted (I wouldn't know, not many groups were subject to 2000 years of persecution), but it is a bit jarring (and at times seems hysterical) when you're in their cross hairs. This time, it is the entire muslim population that is, apparently. Also, some folks on the Israeli tech Twitter are quite simply and incomprehensibly incapable of viewing the conditions in Gaza without any semblance of empathy or sympathy. I consider tech to be fairly liberal and left leaning and so this totally caught me totally off-guard the first few days. I understand the rage, but I'm mostly shocked by the kind of views they ascribe to in light of extracting vengeance. > This is a scary dystopian future. If so, I wonder why the US supports such a future unconditionally? On the other hand, the political and civil unrest in the Middle East for what happens if they pull support, is also quite unimaginable. May be China can step in with fresh ideas (though, Israel might say they're antisemites).