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As a citizen of a country where tax is handled entirely by the government, schemes where for-profit corporations are part of the tax collection infrastructure s

As a citizen of a country where tax is handled entirely by the government, schemes where for-profit corporations are part of the tax collection infrastructure seems absurd. As absurd as for-profit courts or for-profit election polling stations. The article mentions that the tax software maker opposes the government doing this, but doesn't mention public opinion. What does the average American think about this?

jsaintmything 3y ago
Depending on how straight forward the IRS makes it, considering they already know what most people owe and yet still force us to jump through hoops, then I’d be willing to give it a go instead of paying a company to help me with my taxes or using one of the various “free” websites that usually just try to sell you something else.
psunavy03 3y ago
Part of the problem is that both parties have ended up making our tax code so convoluted as sops to their own special interest groups. Group A needs a tax break for this! Group B for that! And so if you have a bog-standard boring return, fine, but if your financial situation ends up in certain buckets such as renting out property, getting RSUs, etc., then sometimes it's cheaper to hire an accountant than leave money on the table not understanding your deductions. And then people in less-complicated situations get intimidated and think they need tax-prep software. Or they're lazy like me and use TurboTax so they can click through everything in an hour and be done with it.
- mnky9800n 3y ago
  The tax code is complicated simply because wealthy people do not want to pay their fair share.
  - samus 3y ago
    Depends on your definition of wealthy I guess. There are many tax exemptions that also affect less affluent people. There are simplified filing schemes, but one would leave a lot of money on the table using those.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    Have you ever done your taxes? For individuals, it’s easier if you have a high income because many of the deductions and credits phase out and are capped by AGI. Dependent care FSA versus dependent care credits, student loan interest deductions, etc. Most of the questions the software asks you aren’t “Warren buffet” deductions.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      If you have high w-2 cash income. Once you get into equity or business income, it starts getting convoluted again.
      - ghaff 3y ago
        Once you get beyond W2 income, things get complex in a hurry. I don't think I have especially complicated income sources and deductions and I still end up with a half-inch sheaf of forms from my accountant every year. It's not actually a lot of work for me personally. I just need to make sure I've kept track of all the paperwork drifting in or downloaded and I have to write a fairly substantial check to my accountant.
    - yonaguska 3y ago
      Actual wealthy is living off investment income, not a W2. These are the people the complications are built for.
      - rayiner 3y ago
        But those complications don’t affect the average tax filer, which was OP’s theory.
- pid-1 3y ago
  Most countries have complicated tax codes. That's not a good reason for tax filling to be hard, unless the tax agency itself doesn't know how much a person should be paying.
  - karmajunkie 3y ago
    i procrastinated on getting my tax paperwork together this year until an unbelievably late date. so i was kind of surprised to get a call from my tax guy on oct 16 letting me know my return was ready —they had just requested my transcripts from the irs, which had all my income from 2022 listed. so it would seem that a) for at least the nominal taxpayer, it’s entirely possible that the government has your information already; and b) unless i get back into consulting or otherwise complicate my income, my tax guy just set himself up to request those transcripts every year!
knubie 3y ago
> What does the average American think about this? That all depends on the government's execution. If they can deliver a system that is more convenient to use, cheaper (no, government services are not "free") and provides better results, then I'm all for it.
- AlexandrB 3y ago
  I'm pretty sure in this case it could be actually free since the government already collects and verifies all the required information.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    Free at point of use, but cannot possibly be free overall. If it would be free overall, it would take no time to develop or support and would already be rolled out.
bell-cot 3y ago
> What does the average American think about this? Like most problems, the average American has (for political purposes) ~zero mental engagement with this. Vs. those for-profit corporations (and a variety of other interest groups) are intensely engaged. And it's all-too-frequently reported that any politician who wants to be (re-)elected to America's Congress needs to be intensely engaged with wooing interest group support and campaign fundraising.
- vonwoodson 3y ago
  Here here! And, that is honestly the best. It’s why we have a republic and not a “pure democracy”. Nobody likes taxes, but other than having to interface with the system once a year… who cares? I can pay H&R Block $X or pay $Y more in taxes. Whoopie!
  - bell-cot 3y ago
    /s, perhaps? Summed across the whole economy, the total $X being paid to America's "Tax-Industrial Complex" is vastly more than the total $Y that it'd cost to have an efficient government-run system.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      I expect most of the people who spend substantial amounts of time/money on doing taxes in the US would spend substantial time/money on taxes in most other countries too--unless it's a country where a lot of people basically evade paying taxes at all.
    - vonwoodson 3y ago
      “Tax-Industrial Conplex”?! If you had something to say, it’s now lost behind your rhetoric. "Eisenhower's farewell address to the nation" does not commute to H&R Block. This is a foolish misquote that absolutely reeks of an appeal to (false) authority. I also disagree that a new government tax program would be more efficient than the established market-rate tax preparation businesses. Let alone vastly more efficient. Magical thinking doesn’t help anyone solve anything.
vonwoodson 3y ago
It’s very much a “who cares?” Issue. It’d be cool… but: taxes are still super easy to file for 90% of people. You’ve literally always been able to file your taxes by paper and not have to pay anyone anything to do so. It does not have to be a digital system and the government should not chase technical solutions unless it genuinely benefits its operation and legal requirement. If people want easy taxes then they can hire someone. That seems to be the market solution to most problems.
- mulmen 3y ago
  Paper forms are also a technology. Why should we use paper forms but not electronic forms? Presumably the IRS has embraced electronic computer technology internally and no longer does business only on paper.
ryaneager 3y ago
Or for-profit hospitals…

jsaintmything 3y ago

Depending on how straight forward the IRS makes it, considering they already know what most people owe and yet still force us to jump through hoops, then I’d be willing to give it a go instead of paying a company to help me with my taxes or using one of the various “free” websites that usually just try to sell you something else.

psunavy03 3y ago

Part of the problem is that both parties have ended up making our tax code so convoluted as sops to their own special interest groups. Group A needs a tax break for this! Group B for that! And so if you have a bog-standard boring return, fine, but if your financial situation ends up in certain buckets such as renting out property, getting RSUs, etc., then sometimes it's cheaper to hire an accountant than leave money on the table not understanding your deductions. And then people in less-complicated situations get intimidated and think they need tax-prep software. Or they're lazy like me and use TurboTax so they can click through everything in an hour and be done with it.

mnky9800n 3y ago
The tax code is complicated simply because wealthy people do not want to pay their fair share.
- samus 3y ago
  Depends on your definition of wealthy I guess. There are many tax exemptions that also affect less affluent people. There are simplified filing schemes, but one would leave a lot of money on the table using those.
- rayiner 3y ago
  Have you ever done your taxes? For individuals, it’s easier if you have a high income because many of the deductions and credits phase out and are capped by AGI. Dependent care FSA versus dependent care credits, student loan interest deductions, etc. Most of the questions the software asks you aren’t “Warren buffet” deductions.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    If you have high w-2 cash income. Once you get into equity or business income, it starts getting convoluted again.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      Once you get beyond W2 income, things get complex in a hurry. I don't think I have especially complicated income sources and deductions and I still end up with a half-inch sheaf of forms from my accountant every year. It's not actually a lot of work for me personally. I just need to make sure I've kept track of all the paperwork drifting in or downloaded and I have to write a fairly substantial check to my accountant.
  - yonaguska 3y ago
    Actual wealthy is living off investment income, not a W2. These are the people the complications are built for.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      But those complications don’t affect the average tax filer, which was OP’s theory.
pid-1 3y ago
Most countries have complicated tax codes. That's not a good reason for tax filling to be hard, unless the tax agency itself doesn't know how much a person should be paying.
- karmajunkie 3y ago
  i procrastinated on getting my tax paperwork together this year until an unbelievably late date. so i was kind of surprised to get a call from my tax guy on oct 16 letting me know my return was ready —they had just requested my transcripts from the irs, which had all my income from 2022 listed. so it would seem that a) for at least the nominal taxpayer, it’s entirely possible that the government has your information already; and b) unless i get back into consulting or otherwise complicate my income, my tax guy just set himself up to request those transcripts every year!

knubie 3y ago

> What does the average American think about this? That all depends on the government's execution. If they can deliver a system that is more convenient to use, cheaper (no, government services are not "free") and provides better results, then I'm all for it.

AlexandrB 3y ago
I'm pretty sure in this case it could be actually free since the government already collects and verifies all the required information.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  Free at point of use, but cannot possibly be free overall. If it would be free overall, it would take no time to develop or support and would already be rolled out.

bell-cot 3y ago

> What does the average American think about this? Like most problems, the average American has (for political purposes) ~zero mental engagement with this. Vs. those for-profit corporations (and a variety of other interest groups) are intensely engaged. And it's all-too-frequently reported that any politician who wants to be (re-)elected to America's Congress needs to be intensely engaged with wooing interest group support and campaign fundraising.

vonwoodson 3y ago
Here here! And, that is honestly the best. It’s why we have a republic and not a “pure democracy”. Nobody likes taxes, but other than having to interface with the system once a year… who cares? I can pay H&R Block $X or pay $Y more in taxes. Whoopie!
- bell-cot 3y ago
  /s, perhaps? Summed across the whole economy, the total $X being paid to America's "Tax-Industrial Complex" is vastly more than the total $Y that it'd cost to have an efficient government-run system.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    I expect most of the people who spend substantial amounts of time/money on doing taxes in the US would spend substantial time/money on taxes in most other countries too--unless it's a country where a lot of people basically evade paying taxes at all.
  - vonwoodson 3y ago
    “Tax-Industrial Conplex”?! If you had something to say, it’s now lost behind your rhetoric. "Eisenhower's farewell address to the nation" does not commute to H&R Block. This is a foolish misquote that absolutely reeks of an appeal to (false) authority. I also disagree that a new government tax program would be more efficient than the established market-rate tax preparation businesses. Let alone vastly more efficient. Magical thinking doesn’t help anyone solve anything.

vonwoodson 3y ago

It’s very much a “who cares?” Issue. It’d be cool… but: taxes are still super easy to file for 90% of people. You’ve literally always been able to file your taxes by paper and not have to pay anyone anything to do so. It does not have to be a digital system and the government should not chase technical solutions unless it genuinely benefits its operation and legal requirement. If people want easy taxes then they can hire someone. That seems to be the market solution to most problems.

mulmen 3y ago
Paper forms are also a technology. Why should we use paper forms but not electronic forms? Presumably the IRS has embraced electronic computer technology internally and no longer does business only on paper.

ryaneager 3y ago

Or for-profit hospitals…