4 ms·

I think there is this concept of min/maxing in games that resonates in other areas of our lives. In a game instead of going with the flow and trusting the proc

by kirso 3y ago

I think there is this concept of min/maxing in games that resonates in other areas of our lives. In a game instead of going with the flow and trusting the process people tend to start reading guides how to make the most OP character, maximise stats, and make it a 100% completion. This approach eventually sucks out the pleasure of exploration and random encounters that made the games so good and instead makes people spend hours on trying to maximise stats in a random dice roll fashion. Similarly with other activities, the sense of wonder and "just because" goes out as we are all trying to max out something, whether its wealth or code quality.

eru 3y ago
> This approach eventually sucks out the pleasure of exploration and random encounters [...] Oh, that depends entirely on the game and what your mood is. In something like Opus Magnum that min-maxing is the entire point. In something like Factorio or Oxygen Not Included you can have fun both with bumbling around or with min-maxing. Also have a look at https://www.sirlin.net/ptw https://www.sirlin.net/ptw for some perspective. Playing to Win can be fun and rewarding. See especially the chapter https://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/love-of-the-game-not-playing-to-win https://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/love-of-the-game-not-playing... > Now it’s time for what appears to be the opposite point of view: “playing to win” at all times is counter-productive. If you want to win over the long term, then you can’t play every single game as if it were a tournament finals. If you did, you wouldn’t have time for basic R&D, you’d never learn the quirky nuances that show up unexpectedly at tournaments, and you are likely to get stuck honing suboptimal tactics.
- mortallywounded 3y ago
  Man, I haven't seen David's site in forever... I remember the old Yomi posts about street fighter and the whole Hectóre Blivand design fiasco.
irjustin 3y ago
> In a game instead of going with the flow and trusting the process people tend to start reading guides how to make the most OP character, maximise stats, and make it a 100% completion. I want to be the very best....
Pannoniae 3y ago
to be fair, that's partly the fault of the games themselves too. When the game does not provide immersion or a good story, all left is minmaxing. Developers who only add "content" and not actual memorable experiences make it so players just try to grind the game as fast as possible because they don't fundamentally enjoy the game loop, they just play for the extrinsic rewards (loot, skins, completion, achievements, whatever). even games like minecraft are minmaxing now, even though it used to be all sorts of creative things, since the game encourages minmaxing and discourages anything else. (just see how things like minecarts, redstone etc. have been utterly neglected - in favour of exploiting elytras, villagers and building farms)
- eru 3y ago
  Min-Maxing can be fun. That's how you play Opus Magnum for example (but you don't have to.) Different play styles suit different people, different moods and different games.
  - Pannoniae 3y ago
    yeah but that's much different, on a puzzle game with an explicit goal of optimising, even a leaderboard and stuff. I myself got pretty far on the Turing Complete leaderboard as well and I enjoyed it really much - but my comment was pretty much aimed at "general-purpose" games, not puzzle games which have the explicit goal to be optimised.
    - eru 3y ago
      I'm not sure there are any 'general-purpose' games? I guess AAA games are that to the mainstream? Is that whey they are so same-y?
      - Pannoniae 3y ago
        Pretty much anything which is not an indie game made with love. Like, minmaxing in terraria is wayyyy less prevalent than minmaxing in minecraft, and that's a blatant difference in game design between both. Of course, exceptions exist like factorio, which is a labour of love yet minmaxing is quite strong, but that's because that's one of the game's explicit goals. however, in games like assassin's creed there shouldn't be too much place for minmaxing yet there is because the soulless decisions made by the developers.

by kirso 3y ago

eru 3y ago

> This approach eventually sucks out the pleasure of exploration and random encounters [...] Oh, that depends entirely on the game and what your mood is. In something like Opus Magnum that min-maxing is the entire point. In something like Factorio or Oxygen Not Included you can have fun both with bumbling around or with min-maxing. Also have a look at https://www.sirlin.net/ptw https://www.sirlin.net/ptw for some perspective. Playing to Win can be fun and rewarding. See especially the chapter https://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/love-of-the-game-not-playing-to-win https://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/love-of-the-game-not-playing... > Now it’s time for what appears to be the opposite point of view: “playing to win” at all times is counter-productive. If you want to win over the long term, then you can’t play every single game as if it were a tournament finals. If you did, you wouldn’t have time for basic R&D, you’d never learn the quirky nuances that show up unexpectedly at tournaments, and you are likely to get stuck honing suboptimal tactics.

mortallywounded 3y ago
Man, I haven't seen David's site in forever... I remember the old Yomi posts about street fighter and the whole Hectóre Blivand design fiasco.

irjustin 3y ago

> In a game instead of going with the flow and trusting the process people tend to start reading guides how to make the most OP character, maximise stats, and make it a 100% completion. I want to be the very best....

Pannoniae 3y ago

to be fair, that's partly the fault of the games themselves too. When the game does not provide immersion or a good story, all left is minmaxing. Developers who only add "content" and not actual memorable experiences make it so players just try to grind the game as fast as possible because they don't fundamentally enjoy the game loop, they just play for the extrinsic rewards (loot, skins, completion, achievements, whatever). even games like minecraft are minmaxing now, even though it used to be all sorts of creative things, since the game encourages minmaxing and discourages anything else. (just see how things like minecarts, redstone etc. have been utterly neglected - in favour of exploiting elytras, villagers and building farms)

eru 3y ago
Min-Maxing can be fun. That's how you play Opus Magnum for example (but you don't have to.) Different play styles suit different people, different moods and different games.
- Pannoniae 3y ago
  yeah but that's much different, on a puzzle game with an explicit goal of optimising, even a leaderboard and stuff. I myself got pretty far on the Turing Complete leaderboard as well and I enjoyed it really much - but my comment was pretty much aimed at "general-purpose" games, not puzzle games which have the explicit goal to be optimised.
  - eru 3y ago
    I'm not sure there are any 'general-purpose' games? I guess AAA games are that to the mainstream? Is that whey they are so same-y?
    - Pannoniae 3y ago
      Pretty much anything which is not an indie game made with love. Like, minmaxing in terraria is wayyyy less prevalent than minmaxing in minecraft, and that's a blatant difference in game design between both. Of course, exceptions exist like factorio, which is a labour of love yet minmaxing is quite strong, but that's because that's one of the game's explicit goals. however, in games like assassin's creed there shouldn't be too much place for minmaxing yet there is because the soulless decisions made by the developers.