3 ms·

I think the reference was to a Turing machine, in response to your mention of transferable data and algorithms.

kragen 3y ago
no, i meant literal punched paper tape, like the kind the homebrew computer club swapped tiny basic implementations on tax forms are similar but you can debate whether the algorithms are really in the tax form or in your head
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  That's a really good point. Some of algorithm for decoding virus data is outside the virus too. Maybe that is a good argument they aren't alive
  - kragen 3y ago
    there's a sliding scale, a tiny basic interpreter doesn't explain the addition and subtraction algorithms it uses either, relying on the cpu hardware for that
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      So maybe to be alive you can't use any external interpretation. It pushes the threshold up, but basically all cellular life decoders it's own DNA. The environment is just materials and I formation. No decoding
      - kragen 3y ago
        you run into the reprap vitamin problem: is vitamin b12 'just materials' or is it 'decoding'? but afaik all cellular life encodes its own ribosome proteins in its dna or rna, rather than harvesting ribosomes from prey, so in that sense it encodes its own decoder would a hypothetical https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycoplasma_genitalium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycoplasma_genitalium variety that harvested ribosomes from eukaryotic cells no longer count as 'alive'? it's already an obligate parasite how about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasuia_deltocephalinicola https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasuia_deltocephalinicola? it depends on its insect host for atp
        s1artibartfast 3y ago
        I think you could argue that b12, ect are just materials in the sense that the consumer is not providing inormation for its manufacture. In this case where manufacturing instructions are transmitted, you could have a system where neither component is consider alive by itself, but the system is. One cell with DNA only, and another with ribosomes only would not be considered alive. However, a multicellular combination of them would be alive. Obligate parasites will be alive in some cases, and not in others, depending on how they handle stored data (DNA), and what they rely on the host to do.

no, i meant literal punched paper tape, like the kind the homebrew computer club swapped tiny basic implementations on tax forms are similar but you can debate whether the algorithms are really in the tax form or in your head

s1artibartfast 3y ago
That's a really good point. Some of algorithm for decoding virus data is outside the virus too. Maybe that is a good argument they aren't alive
- kragen 3y ago
  there's a sliding scale, a tiny basic interpreter doesn't explain the addition and subtraction algorithms it uses either, relying on the cpu hardware for that
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    So maybe to be alive you can't use any external interpretation. It pushes the threshold up, but basically all cellular life decoders it's own DNA. The environment is just materials and I formation. No decoding
    - kragen 3y ago
      you run into the reprap vitamin problem: is vitamin b12 'just materials' or is it 'decoding'? but afaik all cellular life encodes its own ribosome proteins in its dna or rna, rather than harvesting ribosomes from prey, so in that sense it encodes its own decoder would a hypothetical https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycoplasma_genitalium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycoplasma_genitalium variety that harvested ribosomes from eukaryotic cells no longer count as 'alive'? it's already an obligate parasite how about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasuia_deltocephalinicola https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasuia_deltocephalinicola? it depends on its insect host for atp
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        I think you could argue that b12, ect are just materials in the sense that the consumer is not providing inormation for its manufacture. In this case where manufacturing instructions are transmitted, you could have a system where neither component is consider alive by itself, but the system is. One cell with DNA only, and another with ribosomes only would not be considered alive. However, a multicellular combination of them would be alive. Obligate parasites will be alive in some cases, and not in others, depending on how they handle stored data (DNA), and what they rely on the host to do.