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> I think that a union is just an entity that represents the workers. In theory, yes. In practice, a union brings with it economic incentives to do more than j

> I think that a union is just an entity that represents the workers. In theory, yes. In practice, a union brings with it economic incentives to do more than just represent the workers. Many of its incentives are in conflict with the wellbeing of individual workers, the company, and the economic wellbeing of the jurisdiction in which they operate. > What makes you less optimistic about it? Corruption, bureaucracy, institutional inertia, incentives for rent seeking, and loss of agency for the individual worker.

polyphony123 3y ago
Depends on the union and how it's organized and ran. Also, do you really think the corruption of the union will EVER outsize the corruption of the corporation? In most unions if I want to fire the head of the union, we just don't vote for them. I can't fire Zuckerberg for being a piece of shit.
- starbase 3y ago
  You can't fire Zuck because he owns the company, same as I can't force you to let me drive your car because it's your car. You are, however, free to work for yourself or any other company.
julian-a-avar-c 3y ago
Maybe I have a case of "wishful thinking", but I think developers are smart enough, and kind enough to get something like this working without too much corruption, and bureaucracy (since you can never eliminate it completely). I mean, look at us, we have OSS. And that might not sound like much for someone who's been industry long enough, but I feel like it's a statement of the freedom we all seek when we use our computers, the power we have (not me, I could stand to loose some mediocrity :P).
- starbase 3y ago
  Speaking only for myself here, I feel more free when I have less organizational hierarchy (read: bosses) to deal with. Might be different for others. I know of no union that would give me the flexibility I currently enjoy--flexibility to bill hourly on some projects, lump sum on others. Flexibility to invest my retirement savings as I wish. Flexibility to work 12 hours days 7 days a week for 6 weeks, then take two months off to travel. Flexibility to tell clients "this is how _I_ do it, full stop. Flexibility to choose my own wage and benefits and career trajectory. Flexibility to work for equity alone, or barter, when it makes sense. That's my reality, and I have yet to see a union that offers anything close.
  - julian-a-avar-c 3y ago
    My thoughts are: Lets create it then! We can make Amazon, Google, tech giants, operating systems, large language models, Chrome, data processing engines... Why would we be incapable of creating a good system for ourselves. Not a perfect one, we can upgrade the version later (lol, Union 2.3.4, merge conflict). But I think we should all want some guarantees to make sure that Big Tech can't unilaterally screw half of us _on purpose_.
    - starbase 3y ago
      By all means, create a more perfect union. Until then, I can't get on board. Seems like every historical instance of individuals ceding their rights to an organization goes rotten. Maybe this time will be different.
silenced_trope 3y ago
Consider the Minnesota Teachers Union: > Minneapolis Public Schools defends policy to prioritize retaining educators of color when determining layoffs > Effective in the spring of 2023, the contract provision states that teachers who are members of "populations underrepresented among licensed teachers in the district" may be exempt from district-wide layoffs outside of seniority order, deviating from the traditional "last-in, first-out" system. > The stipulation is a part of a recent collective bargaining agreement between the Minneapolis Federation of Teachers (MFT) and MPS, which concluded a weekslong teachers' strike in March. https://abcnews.go.com/US/minneapolis-public-schools-defends-policy-prioritize-retaining-educators/story?id=88491641 https://abcnews.go.com/US/minneapolis-public-schools-defends... I can't wait til I'm targeted as a software engineer for being of the "wrong" group!
- polyphony123 3y ago
  You're looking at this backwards. It's a matter of protecting the vulnerable. But sure, let's pretend you're the one being disadvantaged by society.
  - silenced_trope 3y ago
    It's not about pretending. It's about a simple question and answer of whether the union has my back. As a prospective member that would be important to me? If the point of a union is to protect me and my interest as a worker how does it do that by saying "you may be a higher performer but you're not the right <skin-color|religion|gender|sexual-orientation|etc>"?

polyphony123 3y ago

Depends on the union and how it's organized and ran. Also, do you really think the corruption of the union will EVER outsize the corruption of the corporation? In most unions if I want to fire the head of the union, we just don't vote for them. I can't fire Zuckerberg for being a piece of shit.

starbase 3y ago
You can't fire Zuck because he owns the company, same as I can't force you to let me drive your car because it's your car. You are, however, free to work for yourself or any other company.

julian-a-avar-c 3y ago

Maybe I have a case of "wishful thinking", but I think developers are smart enough, and kind enough to get something like this working without too much corruption, and bureaucracy (since you can never eliminate it completely). I mean, look at us, we have OSS. And that might not sound like much for someone who's been industry long enough, but I feel like it's a statement of the freedom we all seek when we use our computers, the power we have (not me, I could stand to loose some mediocrity :P).

starbase 3y ago
Speaking only for myself here, I feel more free when I have less organizational hierarchy (read: bosses) to deal with. Might be different for others. I know of no union that would give me the flexibility I currently enjoy--flexibility to bill hourly on some projects, lump sum on others. Flexibility to invest my retirement savings as I wish. Flexibility to work 12 hours days 7 days a week for 6 weeks, then take two months off to travel. Flexibility to tell clients "this is how _I_ do it, full stop. Flexibility to choose my own wage and benefits and career trajectory. Flexibility to work for equity alone, or barter, when it makes sense. That's my reality, and I have yet to see a union that offers anything close.
- julian-a-avar-c 3y ago
  My thoughts are: Lets create it then! We can make Amazon, Google, tech giants, operating systems, large language models, Chrome, data processing engines... Why would we be incapable of creating a good system for ourselves. Not a perfect one, we can upgrade the version later (lol, Union 2.3.4, merge conflict). But I think we should all want some guarantees to make sure that Big Tech can't unilaterally screw half of us _on purpose_.
  - starbase 3y ago
    By all means, create a more perfect union. Until then, I can't get on board. Seems like every historical instance of individuals ceding their rights to an organization goes rotten. Maybe this time will be different.

silenced_trope 3y ago

Consider the Minnesota Teachers Union: > Minneapolis Public Schools defends policy to prioritize retaining educators of color when determining layoffs > Effective in the spring of 2023, the contract provision states that teachers who are members of "populations underrepresented among licensed teachers in the district" may be exempt from district-wide layoffs outside of seniority order, deviating from the traditional "last-in, first-out" system. > The stipulation is a part of a recent collective bargaining agreement between the Minneapolis Federation of Teachers (MFT) and MPS, which concluded a weekslong teachers' strike in March. https://abcnews.go.com/US/minneapolis-public-schools-defends-policy-prioritize-retaining-educators/story?id=88491641 https://abcnews.go.com/US/minneapolis-public-schools-defends... I can't wait til I'm targeted as a software engineer for being of the "wrong" group!

polyphony123 3y ago
You're looking at this backwards. It's a matter of protecting the vulnerable. But sure, let's pretend you're the one being disadvantaged by society.
- silenced_trope 3y ago
  It's not about pretending. It's about a simple question and answer of whether the union has my back. As a prospective member that would be important to me? If the point of a union is to protect me and my interest as a worker how does it do that by saying "you may be a higher performer but you're not the right <skin-color|religion|gender|sexual-orientation|etc>"?