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What is life? What motivates structures to possess mobility and self determination and all the other definitions? When is a self sustaining process something mo

What is life? What motivates structures to possess mobility and self determination and all the other definitions? When is a self sustaining process something more than a summary of recent physical interactions? There are many self organising systems why are some life and others not? Stars seem to broadly fit most definitions of life. Why are they not considered alive? What is the distinction between living and nonliving allowing our understanding of the universe?

s1artibartfast 3y ago
Those are all really good questions, but at the end of the day they don't really matter and are a matter of semantics. You could similarly ask is there anything that isn't life. Is matter a prerequisite for life? What about voids in the matter of space that shift and change over time? Is empty space alive? You could Define life broadly to include Stars or mountains, but then you just look for a new subset and name that would include life more similar to our own. One definition of life that I think resists scrutiny is an object or unit which contains a transferable data and an algorithm to use that data. This would separate a cloud from a tree.
- kragen 3y ago
  it doesn't distinguish you from certain reels of punched paper tape though
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    The viruses are considered to be alive, I don't see why tax forms wouldn't be alive either.
    - mangamadaiyan 3y ago
      I think the reference was to a Turing machine, in response to your mention of transferable data and algorithms.
      - kragen 3y ago
        no, i meant literal punched paper tape, like the kind the homebrew computer club swapped tiny basic implementations on tax forms are similar but you can debate whether the algorithms are really in the tax form or in your head
        s1artibartfast 3y ago
        That's a really good point. Some of algorithm for decoding virus data is outside the virus too. Maybe that is a good argument they aren't alive
        kragen 3y ago
        there's a sliding scale, a tiny basic interpreter doesn't explain the addition and subtraction algorithms it uses either, relying on the cpu hardware for that
        s1artibartfast 3y ago
        So maybe to be alive you can't use any external interpretation. It pushes the threshold up, but basically all cellular life decoders it's own DNA. The environment is just materials and I formation. No decoding
        kragen 3y ago
        you run into the reprap vitamin problem: is vitamin b12 'just materials' or is it 'decoding'? but afaik all cellular life encodes its own ribosome proteins in its dna or rna, rather than harvesting ribosomes from prey, so in that sense it encodes its own decoder would a hypothetical https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycoplasma_genitalium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycoplasma_genitalium variety that harvested ribosomes from eukaryotic cells no longer count as 'alive'? it's already an obligate parasite how about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasuia_deltocephalinicola https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasuia_deltocephalinicola? it depends on its insect host for atp
- speed_spread 3y ago
  Homoiconicity at the molecular level. LISP in a jar. Go Forth and multiply.

s1artibartfast 3y ago

Those are all really good questions, but at the end of the day they don't really matter and are a matter of semantics. You could similarly ask is there anything that isn't life. Is matter a prerequisite for life? What about voids in the matter of space that shift and change over time? Is empty space alive? You could Define life broadly to include Stars or mountains, but then you just look for a new subset and name that would include life more similar to our own. One definition of life that I think resists scrutiny is an object or unit which contains a transferable data and an algorithm to use that data. This would separate a cloud from a tree.

kragen 3y ago
it doesn't distinguish you from certain reels of punched paper tape though
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  The viruses are considered to be alive, I don't see why tax forms wouldn't be alive either.
  - mangamadaiyan 3y ago
    I think the reference was to a Turing machine, in response to your mention of transferable data and algorithms.
    - kragen 3y ago
      no, i meant literal punched paper tape, like the kind the homebrew computer club swapped tiny basic implementations on tax forms are similar but you can debate whether the algorithms are really in the tax form or in your head
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        That's a really good point. Some of algorithm for decoding virus data is outside the virus too. Maybe that is a good argument they aren't alive
        kragen 3y ago
        there's a sliding scale, a tiny basic interpreter doesn't explain the addition and subtraction algorithms it uses either, relying on the cpu hardware for that
        s1artibartfast 3y ago
        So maybe to be alive you can't use any external interpretation. It pushes the threshold up, but basically all cellular life decoders it's own DNA. The environment is just materials and I formation. No decoding
        kragen 3y ago
        you run into the reprap vitamin problem: is vitamin b12 'just materials' or is it 'decoding'? but afaik all cellular life encodes its own ribosome proteins in its dna or rna, rather than harvesting ribosomes from prey, so in that sense it encodes its own decoder would a hypothetical https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycoplasma_genitalium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycoplasma_genitalium variety that harvested ribosomes from eukaryotic cells no longer count as 'alive'? it's already an obligate parasite how about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasuia_deltocephalinicola https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasuia_deltocephalinicola? it depends on its insect host for atp
speed_spread 3y ago
Homoiconicity at the molecular level. LISP in a jar. Go Forth and multiply.