4 ms·

> This is where some feminists and "anti-porn" activists have problems with it, because in an exploitative system that demands you work in some way to survive,

by brazzy 3y ago

> This is where some feminists and "anti-porn" activists have problems with it, because in an exploitative system that demands you work in some way to survive, there is an argument to be made that no sex work can be truly thought to be entirely devoid of some form of coercion, and therefore the sex involved in that sex work cannot, in turn, be entirely devoid of coercion, which makes it, by definition, rape. The part where they completely discredit themselves is where they (almost invariably) draw from this the conclusion that paying for sex work must be made illegal. If women turn to sex work as the only available means to survive, how exactly does it help them to take away that option?

ToucanLoucan 3y ago
> The part where they completely discredit themselves is where they (almost invariably) draw from this the conclusion that paying for sex work must be made illegal. Agreed. > If women turn to sex work as the only available means to survive, how exactly does it help them to take away that option? Well I don't think the goal is to help them, I think the goal is to take away the ability for people to pay to rape them with legal cover. Like it's one thing for sex workers to be selling access to their bodies if it's under the table and illegal, even technically. It's quite another for the justice system of your particular country to go on the record and, in writing, state that you are allowed to coerce sex from another person in exchange for money. And like, again, I don't entirely disagree with that, if you accept the underlying logic that goes: - Anything done for survival is coerced - Sex work for survival is therefore coerced - Sex during sex work done for survival is coerced sex - Coerced sex is rape - Therefore, no sex work done within a system where it is required for survival is consensual. Like, there is a there there. It's uncomfortable but I can't argue it down. Making it illegal surely doesn't help them, but making it entirely legal means you are basically legalizing the ability for people with money to rape women who cannot say no, lest they starve to death. And like... that doesn't feel great either.
- brazzy 3y ago
  I don't care for all that "logic" which is not logical at all, just a bullshit attempt to avoid confronting that reality doesn't work the way you wish it would and you have no way to change that. >Well I don't think the goal is to help them, I think the goal is to take away the ability for people to pay to rape them with legal cover. In other words: you are willing to make life worse for people in order to protect your own sensibilities.
  - ToucanLoucan 3y ago
    > I don't care for all that "logic" which is not logical at all, just a bullshit attempt to avoid confronting that reality doesn't work the way you wish it would and you have no way to change that. I am so very curious which part of this is breaking with reality in your mind. But given you aren't refuting any particular assertion I'm guessing you're just uncomfortable with the conclusion and don't have a logical refutation for any part of it, so you're just discarding it. To be clear, I do not fully agree with this either which I spelled out quite plainly above. I'm just saying I do understand how they get to the point they're at, which like, you're allowed to do that. You're allowed to understand why people think a certain way without agreeing with it, but just saying "well that's not how reality works!" as though our modern world, legal system and basis of governance was handed down to us by the Almighty on Mount Sinai is the epitome of intellectual cowardice. Most everything about our "reality" is malleable should we will it. > In other words: you are willing to make life worse for people in order to protect your own sensibilities. I literally outlined that I don't agree with this conclusion because I feel it discards too much of the given sex worker's autonomy! I am completely fine with sex work, as long as it's safe for all involved.
- lilboiluvr69 3y ago
  Under this argument wouldn't any type of paid labor be coercive? Hell, it seems like any interpersonal activity in a capitalistic society be considered coercive since every activity is just X number of steps away from 'survival'.
  - ToucanLoucan 3y ago
    I mean, you say that like it isn't a well-worn meme that people loathe the companies they work for but have no real choice to get different jobs. I know dozens of people who work for companies they believe are actively worsening the world because they literally don't have a choice. If they quit, they would die. And that's just like, the basic money problem. If you happen to be in the United States, your ability to access healthcare is also extremely tightly tied to your employment status. Would anyone at all work food service if the alternative wasn't starvation? I don't know a single person who's worked that sort of job that would do it if they didn't need to to eat, not because it's antithetical to the human experience to serve food, but because it pays like garbage and the customers treat you like shit.

by brazzy 3y ago

ToucanLoucan 3y ago

> The part where they completely discredit themselves is where they (almost invariably) draw from this the conclusion that paying for sex work must be made illegal. Agreed. > If women turn to sex work as the only available means to survive, how exactly does it help them to take away that option? Well I don't think the goal is to help them, I think the goal is to take away the ability for people to pay to rape them with legal cover. Like it's one thing for sex workers to be selling access to their bodies if it's under the table and illegal, even technically. It's quite another for the justice system of your particular country to go on the record and, in writing, state that you are allowed to coerce sex from another person in exchange for money. And like, again, I don't entirely disagree with that, if you accept the underlying logic that goes: - Anything done for survival is coerced - Sex work for survival is therefore coerced - Sex during sex work done for survival is coerced sex - Coerced sex is rape - Therefore, no sex work done within a system where it is required for survival is consensual. Like, there is a there there. It's uncomfortable but I can't argue it down. Making it illegal surely doesn't help them, but making it entirely legal means you are basically legalizing the ability for people with money to rape women who cannot say no, lest they starve to death. And like... that doesn't feel great either.

brazzy 3y ago
I don't care for all that "logic" which is not logical at all, just a bullshit attempt to avoid confronting that reality doesn't work the way you wish it would and you have no way to change that. >Well I don't think the goal is to help them, I think the goal is to take away the ability for people to pay to rape them with legal cover. In other words: you are willing to make life worse for people in order to protect your own sensibilities.
- ToucanLoucan 3y ago
  > I don't care for all that "logic" which is not logical at all, just a bullshit attempt to avoid confronting that reality doesn't work the way you wish it would and you have no way to change that. I am so very curious which part of this is breaking with reality in your mind. But given you aren't refuting any particular assertion I'm guessing you're just uncomfortable with the conclusion and don't have a logical refutation for any part of it, so you're just discarding it. To be clear, I do not fully agree with this either which I spelled out quite plainly above. I'm just saying I do understand how they get to the point they're at, which like, you're allowed to do that. You're allowed to understand why people think a certain way without agreeing with it, but just saying "well that's not how reality works!" as though our modern world, legal system and basis of governance was handed down to us by the Almighty on Mount Sinai is the epitome of intellectual cowardice. Most everything about our "reality" is malleable should we will it. > In other words: you are willing to make life worse for people in order to protect your own sensibilities. I literally outlined that I don't agree with this conclusion because I feel it discards too much of the given sex worker's autonomy! I am completely fine with sex work, as long as it's safe for all involved.
lilboiluvr69 3y ago
Under this argument wouldn't any type of paid labor be coercive? Hell, it seems like any interpersonal activity in a capitalistic society be considered coercive since every activity is just X number of steps away from 'survival'.
- ToucanLoucan 3y ago
  I mean, you say that like it isn't a well-worn meme that people loathe the companies they work for but have no real choice to get different jobs. I know dozens of people who work for companies they believe are actively worsening the world because they literally don't have a choice. If they quit, they would die. And that's just like, the basic money problem. If you happen to be in the United States, your ability to access healthcare is also extremely tightly tied to your employment status. Would anyone at all work food service if the alternative wasn't starvation? I don't know a single person who's worked that sort of job that would do it if they didn't need to to eat, not because it's antithetical to the human experience to serve food, but because it pays like garbage and the customers treat you like shit.