7 ms·

Cool tech, but the GTM strategy will make or break them. Small 2-stroke engines (like those run by lead blowers, weed whackers) contribute a relativly insane am

by Hasz 3y ago

Cool tech, but the GTM strategy will make or break them. Small 2-stroke engines (like those run by lead blowers, weed whackers) contribute a relativly insane amount of noise and air pollution, and their solution is an excellent opportunity to get rid of 2 strokes and make a ton of money/improve QOL for everyone. IMO, best way to GTM is probably to partner with TTI, Makita or SBD and license the technology with a royalty per unit. The tool industry has gone through many consolidations for very good reasons, no need to try directly competing and raising yet-another battery platform. One of the industries these conglomerates have terrible penetration in is landscaping crews, who are largely still gas driven. If you can deliver gas-like performance in a backpack blower, they might be interested. If you can't get them interested for selfish reasons, you can force them to switch by going after the pollution issue at a state and local level. Get cities and neighborhoods to ban 2-stroke engines in their communities and contracts. It will be popular with constituents, and landscapers will pass the slight capex cost increase in contract terms. This will force professionals to switch from Stihl to your partner toolmaker, with large investments in tools and especially batteries. This should drive sales in the rest of your partner's tooling ecosystem from an unsaturated group, something you should highlight during that royalty negotiations with your partner. Now that you've captured the pro market, you can drive consumers and prosumers to the platforms via your partner's preferred channel (HD/Lowes). You can lock them into a new battery platform and sell 3 different models to target each group, again targeting groups with poor existing penetration (although not as rich a group as landscapers). You can add more prongs to this strategy (exlcusive vs non-exclusive licensing, partnering with a lower tier tool mfg like greenworks/echo) but that's a basic first pass.

jononomo 3y ago
You should LTW without UA. (You should learn to write without using acronyms.)
tomcam 3y ago
> landscapers will pass the slight capex cost increase in contract terms Not slight. I hate the noise but but realistically, you’re talking at least triple costs, and probably more, to go from gas to electric. You need a shit ton of batteries to last each day if you’re a professional landscaper, and that means serious infrastructure to handle all the battery charging.
- Hasz 3y ago
  Slight compared to TCV. Labor is (usually) the most expensive part; tooling is a one-time large upfront cost that can be depreciated. IME, the maintenance is much lower on electric tooling than even quality gas tooling. Batteries will also wear out, but I think this wear-out cost will be comparable to costs for small engine maintenance. I also don't think the battery tech is ready to replace riding lawnmowers (which use quieter, more efficient, less polluting 4-stroke engines anyways), but perhaps the $BILLIONS of dollars being poured into battery research will yield some improvements.
  - tomcam 3y ago
    > I also don't think the battery tech is ready to replace riding lawnmowers (which use quieter, more efficient, less polluting 4-stroke engines anyways) Well that's the law in California starting 2028. And current tech in riding mowers is just nowhere near what pro landscapers need.
    - hedora 3y ago
      The law clearly says they can’t ban stuff with no feasible commercially available alternatives. Expect court challenges or an implementation delay if no one has built a good electric contractor-grade mower by 2028. The consumer-grade ride on ones are apparently pretty good already.
      - tomcam 3y ago
        Excellent correction, thank you
    - paradox460 3y ago
      I tried a mean green, which is a commercial ev mower. It's nice, better than an ego or whatever, but nothing next to a walker or toro
- jhenkens 3y ago
  I grew up in California, where rain was less of an issue and most landscapers I saw used open-bed pickups with all their tools. I'm currently in Oregon, most landscapers use box trailers to house everything here, which I think might be key to this. I saw an entertaining Youtuber with a "Solar powered" landscaping business in Florida, using a box truck with a hybrid inverter/solar charge controller/battery system, to recharge his lawn powertools while driving between jobs. I see this as a much more practical solution that just having enough of "proprietary company X" battery. Keep your batteries charging 24/7 while working, essentially. Toss some solar if the climate affords it on top to charge the larger batteries used for your inverter up. Plug in the entire trailer when you get home. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93F08kdiOfE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93F08kdiOfE
mholm 3y ago
"To be clear, Whisper is not building a leaf blower (just the propulsor), but the company is already in talks with a few potential partners to bring the ultra-quiet blower to the market" from the article
- Hasz 3y ago
  I saw that -- those potential partners could be almost anyone. I specifically think they should go with a tier-1 tool maker, especially over "lower tier" tool makers or a household electronics brand.
SoftTalker 3y ago
Stihl, Echo, and other companies that landscapers use are already all making electric blowers and weed trimmers.
- Hasz 3y ago
  Do you have any insight into who, if someone else is making their tools? I have never seen then their electric offerings used in person; I would love to know what the market penetration is like. Likewise, I have not seen any performance benchmarks comparing the gas/electric, even from an OEM.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    If a vendor is making an electric and ICE version, but the electric models just do not sale...is it a marketing problem? is it a shelf space problem at the places people buy? is it performance issue? is it they already own ICE models and don't need to buy new? a 2-stroke engine is super simple to maintain, and i'd imagine any landscaping company getting the eye of Sauron in this thread has someone on hand that can repair them.
    - zdragnar 3y ago
      Maintenance is non-existent, until they stop working. Then, your only option is to stare at a circuit board and hope you figure out what blew, or just throw the whole thing away. 2-stroke engines have some advantages. They also require little maintenance, especially if they are used often. Refueling is much faster than recharging, meaning a much smaller capex investment. Large electric batteries are still painfully expensive. Ours got left out inn the rain accidentally, and it was very nearly cheaper to buy a new one on sale than to buy the replacement battery from the manufacturer. That said, the noise and fumes suck. Nobody likes that part. I have an electric lawn mower, but still use a gas leaf blower and chain saw. Since I use those less frequently, the carb tends to gum up if I'm not careful, but it still beats the prices of electric versions.
      - dylan604 3y ago
dghlsakjg 3y ago
> If you can't get them interested for selfish reasons, you can force them to switch by going after the pollution issue at a state and local level. Get cities and neighborhoods to ban 2-stroke engines in their communities and contracts. It will be popular with constituents, and landscapers will pass the slight capex cost increase in contract terms. This will force professionals to switch from Stihl to your partner toolmaker, with large investments in tools and especially batteries. This should drive sales in the rest of your partner's tooling ecosystem from an unsaturated group, something you should highlight during that royalty negotiations with your partner. While I agree that two stroke equipment has a lot of downside, I really can’t get behind the idea that it is acceptable for an interested party to lobby to legally ban their competitor’s products as a sales strategy. This feels like ethics free capitalism exploiting nimbys to force small business money into a large corporation.
- 38 3y ago
  It's acceptable when the competition is knowingly pushing asshole levels of noise and air pollution. Fuck gas equipment. The sooner they are forced out the better.
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    I’m not a fan of the externalities of gas powered small engines, but I strongly disagree that the ends justify the means. I simply don’t want businesses making decisions about which of their competitors products I can own and use. If the ban derives from a community interest in stopping a nuisance, that’s fine. I draw the line at using legislation to force a market advantage.
    - 38 3y ago
      these are not isolated events. these are thousands of workers buying the the most offensive products, in regards to noise and pollution. these workers dont care about the annoyance that they bring to millions of people every day. same as any worker that used lead paint, CFCs, asbestos, or any number of other harmful items. they need to be stopped. if a corporation wants to step in and help that along, even using unethical lobbying methods, then yes, this is a case where the ends very much justify the means.
joncp 3y ago
> Cool tech, but the GTM strategy will make or break them I'm having trouble seeing what google tag manager has to to with it.
- IM67118 3y ago
  Assuming you’re not joking, OP’s referring to their go-to-market strategy.
phyzome 3y ago
Good luck enforcing the ban. Gas leaf blowers are illegal here, but you have to call the police (non-emergency line) and have them show up while the leaf blowers are still going. Basically impossible.
- chongli 3y ago
  Yeah, the way to do a ban is to set a large fine ($5000) and pay a $500 bounty to citizens who report the violator. Neighbours who are annoyed by noisy leafblowers will jump at the chance to collect those bounties.
  - phero_cnstrcts 3y ago
    1984
    - nilamo 3y ago
      How is a story about the government dictating the future by controlling information about the past relevant in a discussion about noise complaints? Referencing HOA-level pettiness seems more relevant. Unless your point was "anything the government does is bad", in which case 1984 is a bad example.
      - kbelder 3y ago
        I'm assuming he's referring to sitting up an environment where citizens are incentivized to report other citizens for crimes, leading to reduced trust among everyone. He could also have referenced 'Papers Please', or any movie about East Germany.
        chongli 3y ago
        Trust is already gone. That’s why we have neighbours who behave antisocially in the first place.
  - shiroiuma 3y ago
bradgessler 3y ago
5th largest economy in the world is banning 2-stroke leaf blowers soon. https://www.businessinsider.com/california-gas-leaf-blower-lawn-mower-ban-rebates-electric-pollution-2021-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/california-gas-leaf-blower-l...
- tim333 3y ago
  They might be over reaching trying to ban all gas powered garden equipment. Some 4 stroke lawn mowers are not too bad.
  - bradgessler 3y ago
    As much as I and other citizens of CA loathes their over reach, I'm actually in support of this because there's so many leaf blowers that run around here during the day. Most people in my bubble agree with this sentiment. I personally have an electric blower because they're less smelly than gas blowers and easier to maintain. I'm not too worried about landscaping pros because their existing equipment will be grandfathered into these new laws and I'm confident the market will bring equipment to pros that they'll end up preferring over gas.

by Hasz 3y ago

jononomo 3y ago

You should LTW without UA. (You should learn to write without using acronyms.)

tomcam 3y ago

> landscapers will pass the slight capex cost increase in contract terms Not slight. I hate the noise but but realistically, you’re talking at least triple costs, and probably more, to go from gas to electric. You need a shit ton of batteries to last each day if you’re a professional landscaper, and that means serious infrastructure to handle all the battery charging.

Hasz 3y ago
Slight compared to TCV. Labor is (usually) the most expensive part; tooling is a one-time large upfront cost that can be depreciated. IME, the maintenance is much lower on electric tooling than even quality gas tooling. Batteries will also wear out, but I think this wear-out cost will be comparable to costs for small engine maintenance. I also don't think the battery tech is ready to replace riding lawnmowers (which use quieter, more efficient, less polluting 4-stroke engines anyways), but perhaps the $BILLIONS of dollars being poured into battery research will yield some improvements.
- tomcam 3y ago
  > I also don't think the battery tech is ready to replace riding lawnmowers (which use quieter, more efficient, less polluting 4-stroke engines anyways) Well that's the law in California starting 2028. And current tech in riding mowers is just nowhere near what pro landscapers need.
  - hedora 3y ago
    The law clearly says they can’t ban stuff with no feasible commercially available alternatives. Expect court challenges or an implementation delay if no one has built a good electric contractor-grade mower by 2028. The consumer-grade ride on ones are apparently pretty good already.
    - tomcam 3y ago
      Excellent correction, thank you
  - paradox460 3y ago
    I tried a mean green, which is a commercial ev mower. It's nice, better than an ego or whatever, but nothing next to a walker or toro
jhenkens 3y ago
I grew up in California, where rain was less of an issue and most landscapers I saw used open-bed pickups with all their tools. I'm currently in Oregon, most landscapers use box trailers to house everything here, which I think might be key to this. I saw an entertaining Youtuber with a "Solar powered" landscaping business in Florida, using a box truck with a hybrid inverter/solar charge controller/battery system, to recharge his lawn powertools while driving between jobs. I see this as a much more practical solution that just having enough of "proprietary company X" battery. Keep your batteries charging 24/7 while working, essentially. Toss some solar if the climate affords it on top to charge the larger batteries used for your inverter up. Plug in the entire trailer when you get home. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93F08kdiOfE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93F08kdiOfE

mholm 3y ago

"To be clear, Whisper is not building a leaf blower (just the propulsor), but the company is already in talks with a few potential partners to bring the ultra-quiet blower to the market" from the article

Hasz 3y ago
I saw that -- those potential partners could be almost anyone. I specifically think they should go with a tier-1 tool maker, especially over "lower tier" tool makers or a household electronics brand.

SoftTalker 3y ago

Stihl, Echo, and other companies that landscapers use are already all making electric blowers and weed trimmers.

Hasz 3y ago
Do you have any insight into who, if someone else is making their tools? I have never seen then their electric offerings used in person; I would love to know what the market penetration is like. Likewise, I have not seen any performance benchmarks comparing the gas/electric, even from an OEM.
- dylan604 3y ago
  If a vendor is making an electric and ICE version, but the electric models just do not sale...is it a marketing problem? is it a shelf space problem at the places people buy? is it performance issue? is it they already own ICE models and don't need to buy new? a 2-stroke engine is super simple to maintain, and i'd imagine any landscaping company getting the eye of Sauron in this thread has someone on hand that can repair them.
  - zdragnar 3y ago
    Maintenance is non-existent, until they stop working. Then, your only option is to stare at a circuit board and hope you figure out what blew, or just throw the whole thing away. 2-stroke engines have some advantages. They also require little maintenance, especially if they are used often. Refueling is much faster than recharging, meaning a much smaller capex investment. Large electric batteries are still painfully expensive. Ours got left out inn the rain accidentally, and it was very nearly cheaper to buy a new one on sale than to buy the replacement battery from the manufacturer. That said, the noise and fumes suck. Nobody likes that part. I have an electric lawn mower, but still use a gas leaf blower and chain saw. Since I use those less frequently, the carb tends to gum up if I'm not careful, but it still beats the prices of electric versions.
    - dylan604 3y ago

dghlsakjg 3y ago

> If you can't get them interested for selfish reasons, you can force them to switch by going after the pollution issue at a state and local level. Get cities and neighborhoods to ban 2-stroke engines in their communities and contracts. It will be popular with constituents, and landscapers will pass the slight capex cost increase in contract terms. This will force professionals to switch from Stihl to your partner toolmaker, with large investments in tools and especially batteries. This should drive sales in the rest of your partner's tooling ecosystem from an unsaturated group, something you should highlight during that royalty negotiations with your partner. While I agree that two stroke equipment has a lot of downside, I really can’t get behind the idea that it is acceptable for an interested party to lobby to legally ban their competitor’s products as a sales strategy. This feels like ethics free capitalism exploiting nimbys to force small business money into a large corporation.

38 3y ago
It's acceptable when the competition is knowingly pushing asshole levels of noise and air pollution. Fuck gas equipment. The sooner they are forced out the better.
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  I’m not a fan of the externalities of gas powered small engines, but I strongly disagree that the ends justify the means. I simply don’t want businesses making decisions about which of their competitors products I can own and use. If the ban derives from a community interest in stopping a nuisance, that’s fine. I draw the line at using legislation to force a market advantage.
  - 38 3y ago
    these are not isolated events. these are thousands of workers buying the the most offensive products, in regards to noise and pollution. these workers dont care about the annoyance that they bring to millions of people every day. same as any worker that used lead paint, CFCs, asbestos, or any number of other harmful items. they need to be stopped. if a corporation wants to step in and help that along, even using unethical lobbying methods, then yes, this is a case where the ends very much justify the means.

joncp 3y ago

> Cool tech, but the GTM strategy will make or break them I'm having trouble seeing what google tag manager has to to with it.

IM67118 3y ago
Assuming you’re not joking, OP’s referring to their go-to-market strategy.

phyzome 3y ago

Good luck enforcing the ban. Gas leaf blowers are illegal here, but you have to call the police (non-emergency line) and have them show up while the leaf blowers are still going. Basically impossible.

chongli 3y ago
Yeah, the way to do a ban is to set a large fine ($5000) and pay a $500 bounty to citizens who report the violator. Neighbours who are annoyed by noisy leafblowers will jump at the chance to collect those bounties.
- phero_cnstrcts 3y ago
  1984
  - nilamo 3y ago
    How is a story about the government dictating the future by controlling information about the past relevant in a discussion about noise complaints? Referencing HOA-level pettiness seems more relevant. Unless your point was "anything the government does is bad", in which case 1984 is a bad example.
    - kbelder 3y ago
      I'm assuming he's referring to sitting up an environment where citizens are incentivized to report other citizens for crimes, leading to reduced trust among everyone. He could also have referenced 'Papers Please', or any movie about East Germany.
      - chongli 3y ago
        Trust is already gone. That’s why we have neighbours who behave antisocially in the first place.
- shiroiuma 3y ago

bradgessler 3y ago

5th largest economy in the world is banning 2-stroke leaf blowers soon. https://www.businessinsider.com/california-gas-leaf-blower-lawn-mower-ban-rebates-electric-pollution-2021-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/california-gas-leaf-blower-l...

tim333 3y ago
They might be over reaching trying to ban all gas powered garden equipment. Some 4 stroke lawn mowers are not too bad.
- bradgessler 3y ago
  As much as I and other citizens of CA loathes their over reach, I'm actually in support of this because there's so many leaf blowers that run around here during the day. Most people in my bubble agree with this sentiment. I personally have an electric blower because they're less smelly than gas blowers and easier to maintain. I'm not too worried about landscaping pros because their existing equipment will be grandfathered into these new laws and I'm confident the market will bring equipment to pros that they'll end up preferring over gas.