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I'm very interested in what infrastructure needs to be put in place to make EV fleet vehicles a reality. Imagine you have a fleet of EV emergency vehicles. How

I'm very interested in what infrastructure needs to be put in place to make EV fleet vehicles a reality. Imagine you have a fleet of EV emergency vehicles. How do make sure they're operable in the event of a far too common electrical outtage? You'd need EV lots, outfitted with chargers, and serious battery backup to make that happen. We're pretty far away from that infrastructure existing. As much as I'd like to see ev fleet vehicles on the road, a too rapid, forced transition to ev's for fleet vehicles scares me.

kalleboo 3y ago
Where I live we have typhoons. The last typhoon disrupted gasoline supplies so bad that all the gas stations around were closed for 2 days due to lack of delivery. Power grid didn't even so much as blip once. It sounds like gasoline cars are the ones that aren't ready for prime time.
parker_mountain 3y ago
> How do make sure they're operable in the event of a far too common electrical outtage? I never got this concern. Gas pumps are powered by electricity, and you're not going to hand fill a fleet's tanks.
- genter 3y ago
  You need a much smaller generator to pump gasoline than you do to charge a van.
  - orangepurple 3y ago
    They should put a gas powered generator in a car to charge the battery while you drive /s
    - r00fus 3y ago
      That’s a Chevy Volt or BMW i3 + REX
- collinc777 3y ago
  I'm from Texas. A hurricane here and a cold winter there and you start to realize that this infra isn't ironclad.
  - sokka_h2otribe 3y ago
    Texas deregulated grid is relatively cheap but also relatively unreliable compared to the rest of the country
whoiskevin 3y ago
How to gas fleets operate during a power outage? After all gas pumps don't work. These questions may be legit but they always feel like a veiled attempt to discredit a viable alternative to the noise and pollution that is the status quo.
- collinc777 3y ago
  Backup generators, pre stocked fuel, and manual pumps are all cheap ways to provide redundancy. Providing redundancy for EV fleet vehicles is much more expensive. It all relies on the cost of the battery going down.
  - Robotbeat 3y ago
    Backup generators And prestocked fuel? Sounds like the same approach, actually? Plus you can supplement with on-premises solar/battery.
  - rnk 3y ago
    We already know from many other hurricanes during the last few years that there is usually scattershot electricity supplies. It takes longer to get more gas. It's surprisingly the case that we know from the last 10 years that EVs work at least as well as gas cars, and when gas runs out and it wasn't resupplied gas cars work better.
- gamblor956 3y ago
  Gas pumps in many states operate when the power grid is down. They simply switch over to backup generators (fueled by gasoline) to provide the electricity to run the pumps. See e.g. https://www.abcactionnews.com/simplemost/how-do-gas-stations-pump-without-electricity https://www.abcactionnews.com/simplemost/how-do-gas-stations...
floxy 3y ago
As long as your EVs have batteries, seems like you should be OK, as long as they're not all at 10% of charge. How many miles does an ambulance, fire truck, or police car put on in a week? What length of power outage are you guarding against? Weeks long?
- collinc777 3y ago
  The range of these larger vehicles is currently ~100 mi. Most operators charge them once a day.
  - Robotbeat 3y ago
    That’s the real problem. Undersized (“rIgHtSiZeD”) batteries. Consumer pure BEVs didn’t take off until >200 mile EVs became available.
  - floxy 3y ago
    Anyone know where to find the range specs for the Rivian fleet vehicles/vans? On the Rivian website, the RT1 and RS1 have advertised models with ranges varying from 260 to 410 miles. https://rivian.com/r1s#specs https://rivian.com/r1s#specs
  - rnk 3y ago
    No, the range is not 100 miles. Even 10,000 pound vehicles can go 300 miles these days, like a hummer.
    - RandallBrown 3y ago
      Rivian is 150 miles. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/14/what-its-like-to-deliver-for-amazon-in-new-rivian-electric-vans.html#:~:text=In%20the%20early%20days%20of,to%20recharge%20the%20vehicle%20overnight https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/14/what-its-like-to-deliver-for.... Ford is 100-126 https://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/e-transit/ https://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/e-transit/
      - 3y ago
nickik 3y ago
Usually things like hospitals already have static fuel burning backups. You would just use those for charging as well. Then you only need 1 fuel source, and that can be gas for example. Sure this means you need more static power generation capability, but I think its a worthwhile tradeoff.
crazygringo 3y ago
Electrical outages aren't all that common as a regular thing in the first place, and for package delivery it's not unreasonable to expect packages not to be delivered during a multi-day blackout. As for emergency vehicles specifically, that's what backup generators are for. And it's not like there are that many emergency vehicles in the first place. Keeping 3 fire trucks charged, or 4 ambulances, in a single location, with a generator, is pretty trivial all things considered. The main vehicles that will probably remain gas are snowplows (often garbage trucks with a plow attachment). In major winter storms, snowplows need to operate continuously and are parked together rather than dispersed among small sites the way emergency vehicles are. But for that very reason, forced electrification isn't coming for them. Planners and lawmakers are very aware of these situations.
- orangepurple 3y ago
  > Electrical outages aren't all that common as a regular thing in the first place Oh my sweet summer child. You haven't spent enough time in the midwest. Power outages can occur on windless sunny days and last for a really long time.
  - local_crmdgeon 3y ago
    Never had a blackout in NYC or KC
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    You're right I haven't. How often do they happen and for how long? Minutes or hours or days? Is there anywhere that tracks stats nationwide?
    - orangepurple 3y ago
      Hours to a handful of days usually. If I knew where they were I would spend less time driving across the county trying to find places where the lights are still on where I can fill up my truck and gas generator. Since I got a briefcase sized gas generator I don't have to worry about food thawing or myself overheating in the summer since I can run box fans in the shade. They generally provide enough juice to power on a whole house natural gas heater in the wintertime.
kraftman 3y ago
I think the way things are going you're considerably more likely to be near someone who has either a car or a home battery that could provide power to your vehicle, than you currently are to be near someone who has a gas tank at their house. There are already standards to allow cars to discharge to home batteries, and vice versa, theres no system to easily syphon of your cars fuel to another car, or to generate petrol at home.
rnk 3y ago
Saying EVs don't work after emergencies because the power will be off ignores that places run out of gas too. Previous post hurricane situations lead to gas shortages, electricity seems to be more available in a scattered way, gas runs out often. Infra of course can go bad, but the situation of (better have a gas car after a hurricaine/emergency instead of an ev) is another one of those things that has turned out not to be an issue. It's also a thing that places run out of gas for a while, or the gas station doesn't work because it lost power and they didn't wire for a generator. Unfortunately it requires saying that "evs don't work in this scenario" is another piece of fud, along with they catch on fire all the time, need new batteries all the time. EVs are made by humans, they have limitations, just like all vehicles, but they work fine generally. There are lots of examples where post hurricane there wasn't much gas 2017 - https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/09/florida-gas-shortage-blame-environmentalists/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/09/florida-gas-shortage-... Shortage of gas after hurricanes. 2012 - Gas runs short after a hurricane in NJ https://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/02/nyregion/gasoline-shortages-disrupting-recovery-from-hurricane.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/02/nyregion/gasoline-shortag... https://cleantechnica.com/2022/09/28/apparently-we-need-to-talk-about-evacuations-evs-again/ https://cleantechnica.com/2022/09/28/apparently-we-need-to-t... - discusses the FUD accounts that become active after a disaster, evs actually good for idling in heavy traffic leaving hurricane.
peer2pay 3y ago
There’s already plenty of cities with all-electric public transit systems, including bus fleets. In the US, Lancaster CA is a model city & they have plenty of resources online documenting their transition

kalleboo 3y ago

Where I live we have typhoons. The last typhoon disrupted gasoline supplies so bad that all the gas stations around were closed for 2 days due to lack of delivery. Power grid didn't even so much as blip once. It sounds like gasoline cars are the ones that aren't ready for prime time.

parker_mountain 3y ago

> How do make sure they're operable in the event of a far too common electrical outtage? I never got this concern. Gas pumps are powered by electricity, and you're not going to hand fill a fleet's tanks.

genter 3y ago
You need a much smaller generator to pump gasoline than you do to charge a van.
- orangepurple 3y ago
  They should put a gas powered generator in a car to charge the battery while you drive /s
  - r00fus 3y ago
    That’s a Chevy Volt or BMW i3 + REX
collinc777 3y ago
I'm from Texas. A hurricane here and a cold winter there and you start to realize that this infra isn't ironclad.
- sokka_h2otribe 3y ago
  Texas deregulated grid is relatively cheap but also relatively unreliable compared to the rest of the country

whoiskevin 3y ago

How to gas fleets operate during a power outage? After all gas pumps don't work. These questions may be legit but they always feel like a veiled attempt to discredit a viable alternative to the noise and pollution that is the status quo.

collinc777 3y ago
Backup generators, pre stocked fuel, and manual pumps are all cheap ways to provide redundancy. Providing redundancy for EV fleet vehicles is much more expensive. It all relies on the cost of the battery going down.
- Robotbeat 3y ago
  Backup generators And prestocked fuel? Sounds like the same approach, actually? Plus you can supplement with on-premises solar/battery.
- rnk 3y ago
  We already know from many other hurricanes during the last few years that there is usually scattershot electricity supplies. It takes longer to get more gas. It's surprisingly the case that we know from the last 10 years that EVs work at least as well as gas cars, and when gas runs out and it wasn't resupplied gas cars work better.
gamblor956 3y ago
Gas pumps in many states operate when the power grid is down. They simply switch over to backup generators (fueled by gasoline) to provide the electricity to run the pumps. See e.g. https://www.abcactionnews.com/simplemost/how-do-gas-stations-pump-without-electricity https://www.abcactionnews.com/simplemost/how-do-gas-stations...

floxy 3y ago

As long as your EVs have batteries, seems like you should be OK, as long as they're not all at 10% of charge. How many miles does an ambulance, fire truck, or police car put on in a week? What length of power outage are you guarding against? Weeks long?

collinc777 3y ago
The range of these larger vehicles is currently ~100 mi. Most operators charge them once a day.
- Robotbeat 3y ago
  That’s the real problem. Undersized (“rIgHtSiZeD”) batteries. Consumer pure BEVs didn’t take off until >200 mile EVs became available.
- floxy 3y ago
  Anyone know where to find the range specs for the Rivian fleet vehicles/vans? On the Rivian website, the RT1 and RS1 have advertised models with ranges varying from 260 to 410 miles. https://rivian.com/r1s#specs https://rivian.com/r1s#specs
- rnk 3y ago
  No, the range is not 100 miles. Even 10,000 pound vehicles can go 300 miles these days, like a hummer.
  - RandallBrown 3y ago
    Rivian is 150 miles. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/14/what-its-like-to-deliver-for-amazon-in-new-rivian-electric-vans.html#:~:text=In%20the%20early%20days%20of,to%20recharge%20the%20vehicle%20overnight https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/14/what-its-like-to-deliver-for.... Ford is 100-126 https://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/e-transit/ https://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/e-transit/
    - 3y ago

nickik 3y ago

Usually things like hospitals already have static fuel burning backups. You would just use those for charging as well. Then you only need 1 fuel source, and that can be gas for example. Sure this means you need more static power generation capability, but I think its a worthwhile tradeoff.

crazygringo 3y ago

Electrical outages aren't all that common as a regular thing in the first place, and for package delivery it's not unreasonable to expect packages not to be delivered during a multi-day blackout. As for emergency vehicles specifically, that's what backup generators are for. And it's not like there are that many emergency vehicles in the first place. Keeping 3 fire trucks charged, or 4 ambulances, in a single location, with a generator, is pretty trivial all things considered. The main vehicles that will probably remain gas are snowplows (often garbage trucks with a plow attachment). In major winter storms, snowplows need to operate continuously and are parked together rather than dispersed among small sites the way emergency vehicles are. But for that very reason, forced electrification isn't coming for them. Planners and lawmakers are very aware of these situations.

orangepurple 3y ago
> Electrical outages aren't all that common as a regular thing in the first place Oh my sweet summer child. You haven't spent enough time in the midwest. Power outages can occur on windless sunny days and last for a really long time.
- local_crmdgeon 3y ago
  Never had a blackout in NYC or KC
- crazygringo 3y ago
  You're right I haven't. How often do they happen and for how long? Minutes or hours or days? Is there anywhere that tracks stats nationwide?
  - orangepurple 3y ago
    Hours to a handful of days usually. If I knew where they were I would spend less time driving across the county trying to find places where the lights are still on where I can fill up my truck and gas generator. Since I got a briefcase sized gas generator I don't have to worry about food thawing or myself overheating in the summer since I can run box fans in the shade. They generally provide enough juice to power on a whole house natural gas heater in the wintertime.

kraftman 3y ago

I think the way things are going you're considerably more likely to be near someone who has either a car or a home battery that could provide power to your vehicle, than you currently are to be near someone who has a gas tank at their house. There are already standards to allow cars to discharge to home batteries, and vice versa, theres no system to easily syphon of your cars fuel to another car, or to generate petrol at home.

rnk 3y ago

Saying EVs don't work after emergencies because the power will be off ignores that places run out of gas too. Previous post hurricane situations lead to gas shortages, electricity seems to be more available in a scattered way, gas runs out often. Infra of course can go bad, but the situation of (better have a gas car after a hurricaine/emergency instead of an ev) is another one of those things that has turned out not to be an issue. It's also a thing that places run out of gas for a while, or the gas station doesn't work because it lost power and they didn't wire for a generator. Unfortunately it requires saying that "evs don't work in this scenario" is another piece of fud, along with they catch on fire all the time, need new batteries all the time. EVs are made by humans, they have limitations, just like all vehicles, but they work fine generally. There are lots of examples where post hurricane there wasn't much gas 2017 - https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/09/florida-gas-shortage-blame-environmentalists/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/09/florida-gas-shortage-... Shortage of gas after hurricanes. 2012 - Gas runs short after a hurricane in NJ https://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/02/nyregion/gasoline-shortages-disrupting-recovery-from-hurricane.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/02/nyregion/gasoline-shortag... https://cleantechnica.com/2022/09/28/apparently-we-need-to-talk-about-evacuations-evs-again/ https://cleantechnica.com/2022/09/28/apparently-we-need-to-t... - discusses the FUD accounts that become active after a disaster, evs actually good for idling in heavy traffic leaving hurricane.

peer2pay 3y ago

There’s already plenty of cities with all-electric public transit systems, including bus fleets. In the US, Lancaster CA is a model city & they have plenty of resources online documenting their transition