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BTC =/= crypto at large. Despite all the bad press, shady exchanges, bubbles and busts, a large amount of BTC owners don't sell, and that alone will drive it's

BTC =/= crypto at large. Despite all the bad press, shady exchanges, bubbles and busts, a large amount of BTC owners don't sell, and that alone will drive it's price up. Other cryptos, I can't speak for.

tromp 3y ago
> that alone will drive it's price up Wrong; you need people buying the roughly $25M worth of daily new bitcoins just to maintain the current price.
- dragontamer 3y ago
  What's the $ in your remark? Hint: Its not USD. For an exchange like Binance, its USDT, or Tethers. Its not so hard for them to print USDT and pretend that they're dollars.
  - RestlessMind 3y ago
    USDT / Tether came out recently with the proof of reserves. Even US regulators looked into that and found nothing - https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/23/tether-bitfinex-reach-settlement-with-new-york-attorney-general.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/23/tether-bitfinex-reach-settle... Rising interest rates certainly helped them and USDC/USDT are a money making machine now for their owners.
    - AlexandrB 3y ago
      > USDT / Tether came out recently with the proof of reserves. Do you have a link for this? All I could find is an "attestation" of reserves from a few months ago but could not find any evidence of an audit by a third party that might constitute "proof".
      - RestlessMind 3y ago
        https://tether.to/en/transparency/#reports https://tether.to/en/transparency/#reports Latest report from an independent auditor: https://assets.ctfassets.net/vyse88cgwfbl/63oJePOHqIvrcnXWMPZ1M0/4cfaf2e7cdf80c30b17fdc70faaf741f/ESO.03.01_Std_ISAE_3000R_Opinion_30-06-2023_BDO_Tether_CRR.pdf https://assets.ctfassets.net/vyse88cgwfbl/63oJePOHqIvrcnXWMP... Key stats: "Cash & Cash Equivalent & Other Short-Term Deposits" are $73,567,577,334 (out of total assets of $86,499,251,218). Remaining assets are precious metals ($3,270,216,824), bitcoin ($1,676,229,360), corporate bonds ($115,496,758) etc. It is no rocket science to see why USDT is in black now - with 83B USDT, they have that much cash available to park in T-bills and earn 5+% interest just like that. Even if they were in a hole a few years back, they would have recovered over the last 12-18 months when interest rates started rising.
    - mptest 3y ago
      >Even US regulators looked into that and found nothing - https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/23/tether-bitfinex-reach-settle https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/23/tether-bitfinex-reach-settle... This feels extremely dishonest. They paid a fine/settlement, and are literally no longer allowed to do business in NY lol. Same as trump's businesses. I wouldn't call that finding nothing. You don't pay a 20m fine to regulators and get banned from doing business in the state, if they found nothing lol.
  - SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
    It's whatever currency the miners use to pay for their power. That's almost certainly not USDT or Tethers, or any other cryptocurrency.
bunderbunder 3y ago
It's not the asking price that determines market rates, nor is it the price that people who aren't currently selling believe their assets are worth. It's the price at which active buyers are willing to buy. One of the challenges with price discovery in the BTC market, though, is that there's not really an effective mechanism to prevent wash trades in place. That means that all you need to do to create a bunch of fraudulent liquidity at a higher price is create a sock puppet account and start trading with yourself. Anyone sitting on a hoard of BTC is highly incentivized to do this to try and prevent their on-paper losses in the hope that it will mitigate their becoming real losses. And that can concievably become the bulk of BTC trading volume if there isn't a steady supply of new people who are willing to buy in to Bitcoin at any price.
- dingnuts 3y ago
  if you trade with yourself you still have to pay transaction fees to the cluster. Every transaction would incur a loss. >And that can concievably become the bulk of BTC trading volume if there isn't a steady supply of new people who are willing to buy in to Bitcoin at any price. that would end up just slowly transferring all of the BTC to miners as transaction fees... what a scam! I uh, guess that creates liquidity though?

tromp 3y ago

> that alone will drive it's price up Wrong; you need people buying the roughly $25M worth of daily new bitcoins just to maintain the current price.

dragontamer 3y ago
What's the $ in your remark? Hint: Its not USD. For an exchange like Binance, its USDT, or Tethers. Its not so hard for them to print USDT and pretend that they're dollars.
- RestlessMind 3y ago
  USDT / Tether came out recently with the proof of reserves. Even US regulators looked into that and found nothing - https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/23/tether-bitfinex-reach-settlement-with-new-york-attorney-general.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/23/tether-bitfinex-reach-settle... Rising interest rates certainly helped them and USDC/USDT are a money making machine now for their owners.
  - AlexandrB 3y ago
    > USDT / Tether came out recently with the proof of reserves. Do you have a link for this? All I could find is an "attestation" of reserves from a few months ago but could not find any evidence of an audit by a third party that might constitute "proof".
    - RestlessMind 3y ago
      https://tether.to/en/transparency/#reports https://tether.to/en/transparency/#reports Latest report from an independent auditor: https://assets.ctfassets.net/vyse88cgwfbl/63oJePOHqIvrcnXWMPZ1M0/4cfaf2e7cdf80c30b17fdc70faaf741f/ESO.03.01_Std_ISAE_3000R_Opinion_30-06-2023_BDO_Tether_CRR.pdf https://assets.ctfassets.net/vyse88cgwfbl/63oJePOHqIvrcnXWMP... Key stats: "Cash & Cash Equivalent & Other Short-Term Deposits" are $73,567,577,334 (out of total assets of $86,499,251,218). Remaining assets are precious metals ($3,270,216,824), bitcoin ($1,676,229,360), corporate bonds ($115,496,758) etc. It is no rocket science to see why USDT is in black now - with 83B USDT, they have that much cash available to park in T-bills and earn 5+% interest just like that. Even if they were in a hole a few years back, they would have recovered over the last 12-18 months when interest rates started rising.
  - mptest 3y ago
    >Even US regulators looked into that and found nothing - https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/23/tether-bitfinex-reach-settle https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/23/tether-bitfinex-reach-settle... This feels extremely dishonest. They paid a fine/settlement, and are literally no longer allowed to do business in NY lol. Same as trump's businesses. I wouldn't call that finding nothing. You don't pay a 20m fine to regulators and get banned from doing business in the state, if they found nothing lol.
- SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
  It's whatever currency the miners use to pay for their power. That's almost certainly not USDT or Tethers, or any other cryptocurrency.

bunderbunder 3y ago

It's not the asking price that determines market rates, nor is it the price that people who aren't currently selling believe their assets are worth. It's the price at which active buyers are willing to buy. One of the challenges with price discovery in the BTC market, though, is that there's not really an effective mechanism to prevent wash trades in place. That means that all you need to do to create a bunch of fraudulent liquidity at a higher price is create a sock puppet account and start trading with yourself. Anyone sitting on a hoard of BTC is highly incentivized to do this to try and prevent their on-paper losses in the hope that it will mitigate their becoming real losses. And that can concievably become the bulk of BTC trading volume if there isn't a steady supply of new people who are willing to buy in to Bitcoin at any price.

dingnuts 3y ago
if you trade with yourself you still have to pay transaction fees to the cluster. Every transaction would incur a loss. >And that can concievably become the bulk of BTC trading volume if there isn't a steady supply of new people who are willing to buy in to Bitcoin at any price. that would end up just slowly transferring all of the BTC to miners as transaction fees... what a scam! I uh, guess that creates liquidity though?