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This really is the key thing. Crypto allows for the evasion of laws. That's its key contribution. In authoritarian states this is probably a net good. In the re

• gloosx 3y ago
  Crypto allows evasion of banks for a direct money transfer, this is key thing. The laws are funny in that area.
• ivanmontillam 3y ago
  I'm not condoning crime, but do you recognize that changing laws in an authoritarian state is next to impossible right? Lives lost in Venezuela doing a serious attempt at changing. Do you prefer blood shed on streets?
  • UncleMeat 3y ago
    I think that allowing people to protect themselves from authoritarian governments is often a good thing. I also think it is important to understand that if this is the killer app then we need to be honest about what it is and how that affects people in states that are more just. The benefits to those suffering in Venezuela cannot be separated from the harms done to people in non-authoritarian states.
    • ivanmontillam 3y ago
      Tax evasion is not its killer app, but I reckon cryptocurrencies can be misused that way. Tax evasion is possible with or without mechanism. Real world example in Argentina: the way most landlords evade taxes is by charging tenants in cash. They expect you to go to their place with an envelope full of 1000's ARS banknotes. So far I've not seen rents paid in cryptocurrency, but by extension, would you say cash's killer app is tax evasion indeed?
      • dingnuts 3y ago
        Yes, cash's killer app is crime, too, which is probably why governments like China don't want it. People making the argument that payments are hard to trace with crypto & that's the reason it should be banned or ignored are 1) ignorant because crypto transactions are easier to trace than cash and 2) making a dangerous argument against cash for which authoritarians will be thrilled to have support
      • tim333 3y ago
        I'd say crypto is not very good for tax evasion. The immutable record on a blockchain thing may be a pain compared to cash in hand.
  • rangerelf 3y ago
    Nobody "prefers" it (psychopaths need not apply), but against a regime where literally their prevention method to getting replaced is "bloodshed", what is your suggestion?
    • ivanmontillam 3y ago
      To starve the government financially, through mechanisms of tax evasion. As a very last resource, because again, I do not condone crimes, but: When tyrants rule, it's our human right to disobey. Would you accept to be subservient to a power structure that doesn't work for you? For the "We The People"? Vote them away yes, given voting is not a deceptive theatrical show like it is in Venezuela. So, what are the other alternatives? Ruling out violence of course.
      • D-Coder 3y ago
        > To starve the government financially, through mechanisms of tax evasion. I'm curious if this has ever worked before. I accept that next time might be different, but previous examples would add to your argument.
        • amanaplanacanal 3y ago
          Some folks in the US have been attempting to starve the beast for approaching half a century now. The only thing they have succeeded in doing is passing on trillions of dollars of debt to their children and grandchildren. They keep trying though.
      • vaxintar 3y ago
        I think tax evasion won't ever work as mechanism to fight tyrannical governments because it's your neighbor who suffer the lack of funds, not the ruling class.
• cheschire 3y ago
  I think more specifically it enables the evasion of current unlawful activity prevention controls, however evasion overall is a questionable assertion with the inherent traceability of public ledgers.
• gary_0 3y ago
  > In authoritarian states this is probably a net good Crypto doesn't fix the problem with authoritarian states (or the drug war, or backwards prostitution laws), though, it's just another workaround. There's no shortcut around actual social change. And the idealistic notion that crypto could allow mass civil disobedience didn't really pan out; these days, "civil disobedience" is usually too marketable and monetizable for it to not get co-opted by scamvangelists and corporations (which reminds me of the Black Mirror episode where they monetize the guy's suicidal protest against everything being monetized).
• olalonde 3y ago
  "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear." I'd say the ability to avoid penalties from "victimless" laws is beneficial, irrespective of the governing state.
  • Arainach 3y ago
    Tax evasion is not a victimless crime.
    • olalonde 3y ago
      It's actually easier to perform tax evasion with cash, as it doesn't leave a transaction history.
      • Arainach 3y ago
        There's nothing to debate. Everyone living in society benefits from taxes paid - food inspected, fire service and toll-free roads provided, and so much more. Evading taxes is theft of service from everyone.
        • palmfacehn 3y ago
          There's so much value in roads. You'd think that they could be funded on a pay as you go voluntary model rather than expropriation under penalty of imprisonment. Not to mention the opportunity costs of misallocated resources. If there were nothing more to say here, centrally planned economies would deliver the utopia their proponents promise. Somehow history hasn't played out that way. I'll allow that pragmatism has an important role in tempering the extremes. Claiming that there is "nothing to debate" is a leap into absolutism.
    • anonym29 3y ago
      Taxation is not a victimless crime.
      • amanaplanacanal 3y ago
• altruios 3y ago
  net harm in other parts of the world? Illegality is not directly corelated with harm, sadly. I mostly agree - but would argue its a lot more gray than black & white.
• vaxintar 3y ago
  >in the rest of the world is a harm Have you ever considered what might happen if that distant, authoritarian state suddenly appeared within your country? It has happened many times before, and I don't see why we should think it won't happen again. Things turn around faster and faster as technology progresses, at least from my perspective
• csomar 3y ago
  > In authoritarian states this is probably a net good. In the rest of the world this is a harm. Most of the world is authoritarian and that's if you consider that the Western world is not.
• latchkey 3y ago
  > Crypto allows for the evasion of laws. Uber allowed anyone to drive without a taxi medallion. AirBnB allowed anyone to turn a home into a hotel. Amazon allowed anyone to buy a book online, without having to go to a book store. Not everything is about evasion of laws.
  • rightbyte 3y ago
    The first two examples were probably illegal (taxi laws, zoneing laws) but since big tech did it they weren't crushed and now it is de facto legal.
    • deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    • latchkey 3y ago
      "probably"... also ask yourself who lobbied the hardest to make those laws...
  • JohnFen 3y ago
    Uber was absolutely about the evasion of laws. They went out of their way to break the law and to avoid detection of their lawbreaking. It's the main reason why I will never use Uber.
    • latchkey 3y ago
      By extension of the argument, does this mean you also won't use USD? Plenty of people and even governments use it to break laws too.
      • JohnFen 3y ago
        That's not a parallel argument. It would be a better one if I avoided using Uber because other people used Uber for criminal activity. That's not my stance. My stance is that I avoid Uber because of Uber's criminal activity.
• tshaddox 3y ago
  Wasn't the same thing said about a lot of encryption techniques which are now widely used for non-criminal activity?
  • HDThoreaun 3y ago
    Not by thinking people
    • tshaddox 3y ago
      I bet the people making the argument at that time were convinced they were "thinking people."
• Terr_ 3y ago
  Exactly, or to state the inverse: When a decent legal system can be leveraged by the actors, competing approaches all pull ahead.
• vdqtp3 3y ago
  [US specific] Without evasion of laws, women wouldn't be allowed to vote, black folks would be slaves, interracial marriage would be a crime...I can go on and on. The ability to disobey unjust laws is absolutely essential to the health of a society.
  • Night_Thastus 3y ago
    And what unjust laws in the US is crypto letting people circumvent?
    • EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago
      paying for marijuana?
      • Night_Thastus 3y ago
        If that's the best it can do, meh. It's already legal in what, 40 of the 50 states? Sure, not at the federal level, but that'll happen sooner or later. Plus, I think the vast majority of people pay for it without cypto as is, no issue.
  • RandomLensman 3y ago
    Women didn't get the vote by illegally voting, slavery was outlawed in the end not just circumvented - the ability to change unjust laws is what matters in the end for the health of a society. Just some sort of disobedience technology without plans for change and active work on that (including majority building and policy proposals) is not going to cut it. You want functioning societies not some dystopia with a tech underground.
  • itsafarqueue 3y ago
    Wow you.. really shot your argument in the foot. All those unjust laws were, you know, changed. They weren’t evaded. And there are mechanisms to challenge laws you don’t like that don’t involve simply deciding you’re not going to obey them. But those mechanisms involve real costs that tend to blow away the moralising of most crypto bros.
• bee_rider 3y ago
  Is this true? I mean, let’s buy in on the idea that it is good to enable tax evasion in dysfunctional countries, just for the sake of argument. Isn’t the bitcoin ledger publicly visible? It seems to me that bitcoin isn’t providing a good way to perform tax evasion. It is creating a totally immutable record of tax evasion, that local authorities just aren’t looking at yet. This is, like, the last place I’d store records of my crimes. If anything it seems more like a (maybe) unintentional honeypot. Of course, it is possible to obfuscate your identity through various means when using bitcoins, but it doesn’t happen automatically. And the US government basically beat Tornado cash, right? If you want to be anonymous on the ledger you have some pretty scary enemies I think…