4 ms·

>But hey, you think Russian elections in Crimea are fair and accurate. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34708598 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=347085

by scythe 3y ago

>But hey, you think Russian elections in Crimea are fair and accurate. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34708598 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34708598 Please don't do this. HN does not benefit by becoming a forum where members maintain a stash of oppo on each other to discredit their views.

jnsaff2 3y ago
The moment that trolls came to shill for genocide that ship unfortunately sailed. Moderators are ineffective at shutting down obvious malicious actors.
- JAlexoid 3y ago
  In all honesty, we in the IT community will not escape the reality of politics. Neither does education prevent some really wild conspiracy theories(like Biden blew up NS2 or COVID vaccine is going to kill you)
  - jnsaff2 3y ago
    Of course. I think this is a very important point to make. I also think that even if with the best of intentions when people are calling for not discrediting others views disinfo needs to be called out and challenged as without doing that the gullible might find some new "hidden truth". It's effectiveness should not be overvalued tho.
gopher_space 3y ago
The difference between "stash of oppo" and "identifying a viewpoint" is going to come down to intent, imho. These conversations are already more ephemeral than I'd like them to be and context matters. I want to know who I'm talking to and what their deal is in real life, too.
- somenameforme 3y ago
  The ideal, at least in my mind, is to judge statements based on their content. If a view is supported and logical? Cool. If it's making extreme claims with no supporting evidence? Not so cool, even more so if it's appealing to emotion or bias which are tell tale signs of BS. So for instance in the above statement where our local stalker chose to claim I "think Russian elections in Crimea are fair and accurate", do feel free to read what I wrote. [1] Shortly following the Ukrainian referendum, numerous Western organizations began carrying out their own, arguably adversarial, polls (linked in the linked post). And they all ended up showing similar numbers, taking into account that the original referendum was boycotted by those in support of staying in Ukraine. Had Gallup/Pew/etc not carried out their own polls, or even if they somehow felt the authorities were interfering with their polling, then I think there would be reasonable room for belief in the conspiracy. But when everybody keeps coming up with the same numbers? I don't really understand the mindset in opposition to things like this. It's like people want to believe fake things. I mean just because the election results were valid doesn't mean you suddenly have to start waving a Russian tricolor. If somebody wants to take the position that the election was, nonetheless, invalid because it ran contrary to Ukraine's constitution? More power to them. There's some subjective debates to have there, but it's an absolutely valid and factually supported position to hold. [1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34708598 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34708598
  - jnsaff2 3y ago
    > taking into account that the original referendum was boycotted by those in support of staying in Ukraine. This alone invalidates any of your claim that there is anything fair and accurate about the polling or election numbers. It is as if you want to believe (and spread) fake things.
    - somenameforme 3y ago
      How? I made the assumption least favorable to Russia's position by assuming that that 100% of people who did not vote would have voted against the referendum. Russia got 97% yes with 83% turnout. Gallup got 82.8% agreeing that 'the referendum represents the will of the people.' Factor in 17% who didn't vote in the official referendum as no's, and you get pretty much the exact same numbers.

by scythe 3y ago

jnsaff2 3y ago

The moment that trolls came to shill for genocide that ship unfortunately sailed. Moderators are ineffective at shutting down obvious malicious actors.

JAlexoid 3y ago
In all honesty, we in the IT community will not escape the reality of politics. Neither does education prevent some really wild conspiracy theories(like Biden blew up NS2 or COVID vaccine is going to kill you)
- jnsaff2 3y ago
  Of course. I think this is a very important point to make. I also think that even if with the best of intentions when people are calling for not discrediting others views disinfo needs to be called out and challenged as without doing that the gullible might find some new "hidden truth". It's effectiveness should not be overvalued tho.

gopher_space 3y ago

The difference between "stash of oppo" and "identifying a viewpoint" is going to come down to intent, imho. These conversations are already more ephemeral than I'd like them to be and context matters. I want to know who I'm talking to and what their deal is in real life, too.

somenameforme 3y ago
The ideal, at least in my mind, is to judge statements based on their content. If a view is supported and logical? Cool. If it's making extreme claims with no supporting evidence? Not so cool, even more so if it's appealing to emotion or bias which are tell tale signs of BS. So for instance in the above statement where our local stalker chose to claim I "think Russian elections in Crimea are fair and accurate", do feel free to read what I wrote. [1] Shortly following the Ukrainian referendum, numerous Western organizations began carrying out their own, arguably adversarial, polls (linked in the linked post). And they all ended up showing similar numbers, taking into account that the original referendum was boycotted by those in support of staying in Ukraine. Had Gallup/Pew/etc not carried out their own polls, or even if they somehow felt the authorities were interfering with their polling, then I think there would be reasonable room for belief in the conspiracy. But when everybody keeps coming up with the same numbers? I don't really understand the mindset in opposition to things like this. It's like people want to believe fake things. I mean just because the election results were valid doesn't mean you suddenly have to start waving a Russian tricolor. If somebody wants to take the position that the election was, nonetheless, invalid because it ran contrary to Ukraine's constitution? More power to them. There's some subjective debates to have there, but it's an absolutely valid and factually supported position to hold. [1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34708598 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34708598
- jnsaff2 3y ago
  > taking into account that the original referendum was boycotted by those in support of staying in Ukraine. This alone invalidates any of your claim that there is anything fair and accurate about the polling or election numbers. It is as if you want to believe (and spread) fake things.
  - somenameforme 3y ago
    How? I made the assumption least favorable to Russia's position by assuming that that 100% of people who did not vote would have voted against the referendum. Russia got 97% yes with 83% turnout. Gallup got 82.8% agreeing that 'the referendum represents the will of the people.' Factor in 17% who didn't vote in the official referendum as no's, and you get pretty much the exact same numbers.