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European countries won’t retaliate against Russia because - They are too civilised - They have already done everything with “sanctions” they can - It is bene

European countries won’t retaliate against Russia because - They are too civilised - They have already done everything with “sanctions” they can - It is benefit for West for Russians to access free information, instead of Putin’s propaganda only

rjzzleep 3y ago
[flagged]
- hef19898 3y ago
  First, there is no proof it was Ukraine (but they are a top contender based on motive). Second, if it was Ukraine, an about face, or even tacit approval, of other NATO members would make pwrfect sense. Third, NS2 was never used and no impact on any gas shortages or gas prices Europe.
  - rjzzleep 3y ago
    What are you talking about? You basically agreed on the bombing matter. NS1 was destroyed along with it, which was the biggest Gas valve to Europe. The EU subsidized the energy market with 400 billion last year. The industries sure felt it and so did many consumers. "The deindustrialization of Germany: If Europe’s economic motor stalls, the Continent’s already polarized political landscape will shudder."[1] July 13, 2023 "Germany went from envy of the world to the worst-performing major developed economy. What happened?" [2] Sep 2023 "Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?" [3] [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/rust-belt-on-the-rhine-the-deindustrialization-of-germany/ https://www.politico.eu/article/rust-belt-on-the-rhine-the-d... [2] https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/global-ideal-germanys-economy-struggles-energy-shock-exposing-103300208 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/global-ideal-germa... [3] https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/08/17/is-germany-once-again-the-sick-man-of-europe https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/08/17/is-germany-once...
    - hef19898 3y ago
      True, we barely survived the freezing winter to wake up to a industrial wasteland. We are on hard times, really hard, Wolfsburg, Munich, Ingolstadt and Stuttgart turned into a second Detroit... The reasons for Germany's economical troubles are way more complex than "gas expensive".
      - bboygravity 3y ago
        I can't think of anything more dumb than German energy policy in the past decades though personally. Surely you must agree that the German energy policy for the past decades wasn't exactly beneficial in any way to any nation other than Russia? For Germany it wasn't beneficial either, not geopolitically, nor environmentally (closing nuclear and essentially replacing it with gas and coal) nor economically (some of the highest consumer electricity prices in the world)? I mean the definition of stupid is when you make decisions that hurt yourself and everybody you like while helping your enemy. This is what Germany/Schroder basically did with the Russian gas corruption.
        hef19898 3y ago
        What Germany did, and they were far from the only ones buing from Russia, was two things: Buying from a cheap, reliable (the USSR delivered gas since the 70s) supplier of an energe source Germany needed. Nothing stupid about that. Tying said supplier closer to the West, assuming, rightly so for a very long time, that close economic ties will keep communication channels open. And that the likely hood of a war will be reduced. That approach worked very well until Russia annexed Crimea (nobody did anything about that, incl. the USA). And then it was a potential way to prevent a war (econimic ties help mitigating that risk). That in the end it didn't work out hardly makes this appriach "stupid"... And electricity prices... Welly gas is not really used for elelctricity generation in Germany, we heat using gas (for consumers, that is). That electeicity prices in Germany are higher than elsewhere has different reasons. Industry prices are competetive so, and much, much lower than consumer prices. And the latter are important for the economy.
    - trasz4 3y ago
  - treis 3y ago
    There's plenty of proof that it was Ukraine. They tracked the yacht, detected explosives, and know the people who rented the yacht. There's not really much doubt anymore who did it.
konart 3y ago
>- They are too civilised Sure. The same "too civilised" coutries who were selling Putin toys for crowd control to suppress 2011 protest and more. Same fucking people acting in their interests. Nothing more.
jopsen 3y ago
More likely, western countries still have many escalation options available. Russia cuts a cable, we donate some F16s that were already scheduled for retirement. Which is going to hurt the most? (Just a theory, but right now it might not be worthwhile to even acknowledge that they cable was intentionally cut)

rjzzleep 3y ago

[flagged]

hef19898 3y ago
First, there is no proof it was Ukraine (but they are a top contender based on motive). Second, if it was Ukraine, an about face, or even tacit approval, of other NATO members would make pwrfect sense. Third, NS2 was never used and no impact on any gas shortages or gas prices Europe.
- rjzzleep 3y ago
  What are you talking about? You basically agreed on the bombing matter. NS1 was destroyed along with it, which was the biggest Gas valve to Europe. The EU subsidized the energy market with 400 billion last year. The industries sure felt it and so did many consumers. "The deindustrialization of Germany: If Europe’s economic motor stalls, the Continent’s already polarized political landscape will shudder."[1] July 13, 2023 "Germany went from envy of the world to the worst-performing major developed economy. What happened?" [2] Sep 2023 "Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?" [3] [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/rust-belt-on-the-rhine-the-deindustrialization-of-germany/ https://www.politico.eu/article/rust-belt-on-the-rhine-the-d... [2] https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/global-ideal-germanys-economy-struggles-energy-shock-exposing-103300208 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/global-ideal-germa... [3] https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/08/17/is-germany-once-again-the-sick-man-of-europe https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/08/17/is-germany-once...
  - hef19898 3y ago
    True, we barely survived the freezing winter to wake up to a industrial wasteland. We are on hard times, really hard, Wolfsburg, Munich, Ingolstadt and Stuttgart turned into a second Detroit... The reasons for Germany's economical troubles are way more complex than "gas expensive".
    - bboygravity 3y ago
      I can't think of anything more dumb than German energy policy in the past decades though personally. Surely you must agree that the German energy policy for the past decades wasn't exactly beneficial in any way to any nation other than Russia? For Germany it wasn't beneficial either, not geopolitically, nor environmentally (closing nuclear and essentially replacing it with gas and coal) nor economically (some of the highest consumer electricity prices in the world)? I mean the definition of stupid is when you make decisions that hurt yourself and everybody you like while helping your enemy. This is what Germany/Schroder basically did with the Russian gas corruption.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        What Germany did, and they were far from the only ones buing from Russia, was two things: Buying from a cheap, reliable (the USSR delivered gas since the 70s) supplier of an energe source Germany needed. Nothing stupid about that. Tying said supplier closer to the West, assuming, rightly so for a very long time, that close economic ties will keep communication channels open. And that the likely hood of a war will be reduced. That approach worked very well until Russia annexed Crimea (nobody did anything about that, incl. the USA). And then it was a potential way to prevent a war (econimic ties help mitigating that risk). That in the end it didn't work out hardly makes this appriach "stupid"... And electricity prices... Welly gas is not really used for elelctricity generation in Germany, we heat using gas (for consumers, that is). That electeicity prices in Germany are higher than elsewhere has different reasons. Industry prices are competetive so, and much, much lower than consumer prices. And the latter are important for the economy.
  - trasz4 3y ago
- treis 3y ago
  There's plenty of proof that it was Ukraine. They tracked the yacht, detected explosives, and know the people who rented the yacht. There's not really much doubt anymore who did it.

konart 3y ago

>- They are too civilised Sure. The same "too civilised" coutries who were selling Putin toys for crowd control to suppress 2011 protest and more. Same fucking people acting in their interests. Nothing more.

jopsen 3y ago

More likely, western countries still have many escalation options available. Russia cuts a cable, we donate some F16s that were already scheduled for retirement. Which is going to hurt the most? (Just a theory, but right now it might not be worthwhile to even acknowledge that they cable was intentionally cut)