3 ms·

> Unfortunately, this eroded away with the occupation. Most of us don't remember a time of co-existence. Hebron has proven that much. > The moderate/liberal e

> Unfortunately, this eroded away with the occupation. Most of us don't remember a time of co-existence. Hebron has proven that much. > The moderate/liberal element has grown tired by the robbery conducted by the hasidic jews and the fact that religious settlers are forcing us into redundant conflicts with the Palestinians Sad that this in turn seeds more divide. > There's an attack on Israeli settlements, so we'll build even more settlements to "show them" I saw on Israeli twitter (https://twitter.com/EliramE/status/1711747425398919667 https://twitter.com/EliramE/status/1711747425398919667) from someone claiming to be "friends with many Arabs" that the Palestine people wouldn't sell their land even when offered millions of dollars (I presume, such deals are the norm for East Jerusalem?). That's a level of resolve I have not known. So, I can see where the "teach them" part comes from: displacement as a means of shame for the Palestine people seems like a valid view. > Jews wouldn't live in Hebron without being religious extremists. Just them wouldn't be so bad, but from what I read, the IDF is on the act, too? > They don't yell "death to Arabs" or anything like that publicly After the deplorable massacre on 7th, it seems like (from observing Israeli tech twitter) that there is prevalence of Islamophobia (ex: https://archive.is/9PV2e https://archive.is/9PV2e) possibly amongst moderates (and liberals alike)? All in the open, for now at least, while emotions run high (of course, antisemitism is rife within Muslims when it comes to this conflict, but even folks who aren't, are generally very angry at Israel continuing to move the Immovable Ladder in Jerusalem, in Hebron, in Judea, in Samaria with every passing day). > Notice that there are the crazier Nazi level players. Sigh. Such irony just writes itself. > Israeli liberals speak up a lot. Glad. I sincerely hope they haven't changed their views post Oct 7, and continue to take a long-term non-violent view. > Organizations like BDS which tries to blacklist Israel end up even worse. Social Media is making it even more worse. In fact, I am terrified of liking a wrong tweet, or writing something stupid here... What a time to be alive where anyone can get cancelled. > Both Palestinians and Israelis aren't for this in very large numbers. This makes the situation in the West Bank even more idiotic from the Israeli PoV. I read that if Israel orders evacuation, settlers are not entitled to compensation (like Gaza and Sinai settlers were)? So, this can still be undone, though, I suspect armed-settlers would to make this a riot-free affair. > Getting the communities to "buy into" a cultural shift would be hard. I guess, the current brouhaha in the Arab world rallying around (dubious) hospital bombing (most likely planted by Hamas) should inform Israel that a majority of the 2b muslims are watching and they won't like war because in this charged conflict it doesn't matter who's righteous / evil anymore (given years of misgivings and mutual distrust). Manufacturing consent from the West matters not if there is no appetite for a multi-front war. Gone are the days when celebrities and prominent political figure heads would "sign a document" in show of support and everyone in their sphere of influence would rally behind them. With the rise of influencers (and disinformation factories), this tactic is done for, for worse or for good. I think had the Israelis waged a "smaller war" (like in 2014), they'd not have triggered such attention. And they can count on getting away with displacement, discrimination, and siege too, like forever. In which case, they'd have to continue to perfect the Iron Wall and continue to work towards fully-autonomous weapons and war machines as deterrence. This outcome would of course suck for Palestine.

invalidname 3y ago
> > Jews wouldn't live in Hebron without being religious extremists. > Just them wouldn't be so bad, but from what I read, the IDF is on the act, too? This is problematic. Over the past couple of decades the religious right became more dominant in Israeli society. We call them the knitted yamaka's since that's their signature head wear. They slowly worked their way into the IDF as liberals were growing tired and reduced their service due to the long occupation which is abhorrent to most of us. Still, it's an Army. You can't choose your deployment and you can get placed in Hebron even if you think Jews have no right to be there. You must follow these orders since they aren't illegal. That's where the gray area comes in. Technically, the army is there to keep the peace. Realistically I've seen videos where settlers purposely taunt Palestinians next to soldiers knowing that if push comes to shove a soldier will ultimately pick their side. This is even more pronounced with the religious right soldiers which can be easily identifiable. > that there is prevalence of Islamophobia Yes. The Hamas is calling for a common uprising. Arab citizens have many fair grievances but most of them don't want violence. OTOH there are terrible cases there. An Arab bicycle shop owner donated bicycles for Jewish children who survived that massacre. His reward was that his neighbor torched his store... So there's a lot of hate and a lot of it is hyped which makes people cautious and distrustful. > Glad. I sincerely hope they haven't changed their views post Oct 7, and continue to take a long-term non-violent view. It's not a non-violent view for most. There are pacifists but they are rare. It's about a separation between the actual enemy and the people who might not like Israel, but aren't an enemy. There are great organizations like: https://www.btselem.org/ https://www.btselem.org/ https://www.ahimlaneshek.org/ https://www.ahimlaneshek.org/ https://peacenow.org.il/ https://peacenow.org.il/ And many others like them. > This makes the situation in the West Bank even more idiotic from the Israeli PoV. I read that if Israel orders evacuation, settlers are not entitled to compensation (like Gaza and Sinai settlers were)? So, this can still be undone, though, I suspect armed-settlers would to make this a riot-free affair. Every time settlements were cleared it turned into a clusterfuck. Soldiers were attacked violently etc. I get the trauma of being ripped from your home... But you can't attack your own army. The supreme court provided increased compensation in the case of settlers who were removed from Gaza. But it's not about the money for these people. It's an ideal and that's something far more scary. > inform Israel that a majority of the 2b muslims are watching and they won't like war because in this charged conflict This feeds into the "we're alone in this" mentality and the need to "show strength". I don't think there's a logical and sensible argument to be made. I read a great piece in the local paper where the author analyzed the problematic nature of "the day after Hamas". The comments were mostly insulting to him and very militant. I find that when I talk to people individually most of them have the capacity to understand the nuance of the situation. But a mob mentality and siloed communities create a more violent outcome. > In which case, they'd have to continue to perfect the Iron Wall and continue to work towards fully-autonomous weapons and war machines as deterrence. This outcome would of course suck for Palestine. This is a scary dystopian future. You asked about what "their" end goal is, I wouldn't be surprised if it looks like that. I hope we can avoid that by kicking out Netanyahu and his cronies but this has proven more difficult than one would imagine.

invalidname 3y ago

> > Jews wouldn't live in Hebron without being religious extremists. > Just them wouldn't be so bad, but from what I read, the IDF is on the act, too? This is problematic. Over the past couple of decades the religious right became more dominant in Israeli society. We call them the knitted yamaka's since that's their signature head wear. They slowly worked their way into the IDF as liberals were growing tired and reduced their service due to the long occupation which is abhorrent to most of us. Still, it's an Army. You can't choose your deployment and you can get placed in Hebron even if you think Jews have no right to be there. You must follow these orders since they aren't illegal. That's where the gray area comes in. Technically, the army is there to keep the peace. Realistically I've seen videos where settlers purposely taunt Palestinians next to soldiers knowing that if push comes to shove a soldier will ultimately pick their side. This is even more pronounced with the religious right soldiers which can be easily identifiable. > that there is prevalence of Islamophobia Yes. The Hamas is calling for a common uprising. Arab citizens have many fair grievances but most of them don't want violence. OTOH there are terrible cases there. An Arab bicycle shop owner donated bicycles for Jewish children who survived that massacre. His reward was that his neighbor torched his store... So there's a lot of hate and a lot of it is hyped which makes people cautious and distrustful. > Glad. I sincerely hope they haven't changed their views post Oct 7, and continue to take a long-term non-violent view. It's not a non-violent view for most. There are pacifists but they are rare. It's about a separation between the actual enemy and the people who might not like Israel, but aren't an enemy. There are great organizations like: https://www.btselem.org/ https://www.btselem.org/ https://www.ahimlaneshek.org/ https://www.ahimlaneshek.org/ https://peacenow.org.il/ https://peacenow.org.il/ And many others like them. > This makes the situation in the West Bank even more idiotic from the Israeli PoV. I read that if Israel orders evacuation, settlers are not entitled to compensation (like Gaza and Sinai settlers were)? So, this can still be undone, though, I suspect armed-settlers would to make this a riot-free affair. Every time settlements were cleared it turned into a clusterfuck. Soldiers were attacked violently etc. I get the trauma of being ripped from your home... But you can't attack your own army. The supreme court provided increased compensation in the case of settlers who were removed from Gaza. But it's not about the money for these people. It's an ideal and that's something far more scary. > inform Israel that a majority of the 2b muslims are watching and they won't like war because in this charged conflict This feeds into the "we're alone in this" mentality and the need to "show strength". I don't think there's a logical and sensible argument to be made. I read a great piece in the local paper where the author analyzed the problematic nature of "the day after Hamas". The comments were mostly insulting to him and very militant. I find that when I talk to people individually most of them have the capacity to understand the nuance of the situation. But a mob mentality and siloed communities create a more violent outcome. > In which case, they'd have to continue to perfect the Iron Wall and continue to work towards fully-autonomous weapons and war machines as deterrence. This outcome would of course suck for Palestine. This is a scary dystopian future. You asked about what "their" end goal is, I wouldn't be surprised if it looks like that. I hope we can avoid that by kicking out Netanyahu and his cronies but this has proven more difficult than one would imagine.