6 ms·

Having grown up with psytrance, I find that 25 years later the modern stuff just sounds like a cheap, low-effort pastiche of what psytrance used to be. And... I

Having grown up with psytrance, I find that 25 years later the modern stuff just sounds like a cheap, low-effort pastiche of what psytrance used to be. And... I just became my Dad.

TonyTrapp 3y ago
Happens probably to anyone loving a genre for an extended amount of time. Trance, Drum & Bass, Psytrance, you hear that sentiment everywhere.
- meow_cat 3y ago
  I really wonder if this is 1) Nostalgia.Obviously, the first tracks you heard were your introduction to the genre, so they will have emotional value. 2) First-mover advantage, for the lack of a better word. Obviously you perceive every new track t_i in the context of t_{0..i-1} that you already know. Maybe track t_443, which sounds cheap and commercial now, would have sounded innovative if you heard it as t_33? 3) Genre saturation. How many truly new tracks can be done in psytrance (or any other specific genre) while still being psytrance, before every track sounds like one that was done before? I don't envy the poor souls trying to express individuality in established, specialized genres. I also wonder whether we could use deep learning to learn representations unbiased by our own history with the genres, and analyze this in a more unbiased way. But I'm also sure you can make the model say whatever you want if you bend the data the right way :)
  - Fnoord 3y ago
    Maybe, I don't think so. The first time I heard goa trance it was in 90s, Astral Projection. It was too weird for me. I couldn't stand it! Then in the early 00s I got introduced to psytrance. I started listening to it. Then I refound my love for goa trance (see my other post for examples) and I fell in love. It was an exciting time for me. I fell in love with two women, I used my first time MDMA and mushrooms later on, all of this while I learned to know this fantastic genre. One could argue it was related to my first listening of AP. But I don't think I heard MWNN before, and I instantly loved it, and he has a very distinctive style. If you take Shakta, he's also made psytance, same with Miranda, MWNN, AP, etc etc but I don't like it. Also, back in the 90s I listened to a lot of progressive trance as well (the usual names: Paul Oakenfold, Paul van Dyk, stuff mixed by Tiesto, Ferry Corsten, etc etc). How would you explain that? Plus I like a lot more electronic music, mostly (but not solely) from 90s. I even like some psydub/psybient. But psytance? Nope. Well, barely.
  - I_Am_Nous 3y ago
    I think the bar has been raised by what even casual producers can do with DAWs. I gave a listen to a classic drum and bass album recently (Wormhole by Ed Rush and Optical) and while I really enjoyed it, by the end of the album I can kind of tell how many of the various samples were used over and over again. The Wikipedia article[1] lists the hardware/software they used, and it looks like the recording computer was an Apple LCII. So a lot of what they were able to make seems like it would have been limited by what hardware they were able to finagle. Compare that to a similarly layered and voiced project in a modern DAW. While the compute requirements have gone up drastically, the complexity the DAW has compressed into a single screen would make it trivial to make a similar album now (from a purely technical standpoint - the album is still the work of an artist). 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole_(album) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole_(album)
globular-toast 3y ago
I stopped listening around the time of Infected Mushroom's Vicious Delicious. The genre seemed to jump the shark around that time. Looking back Goa Trance was the real trance and by 2000 it was already starting to go down the shitter.
- Fnoord 3y ago
  Goa trance was a great genre in the 90s. After that it went downwards (with Filteria & Suntrip 2004 revival from death of the genre but on life support). It got completely overshadowed by this abomination called psytance which I don't like. The specific album you mentioned, has two tracks I like (Heavyweight and Suliman) because I saw a fellow on YouTube using a guitar to 1:1 the riffs. It was that good that I donated to him. But otherwise I've never been much of a fan of IM. I find they're overrated. When I think of goa trance I think of names like Astral Projection, Green Nuns Of The Revolution, Hallucinogen, Man With No Name, Miranda, Prana, Transwave and many of these dabbled into the psytrance genre. Some came back! I'll mention some of my favourites: Hallucinogen live at DNA Lounge (2001?), Paul Oakenfold's Essential Mix ('Goa silver and gold mix', '94), any 90s live set by Astral Projection (there are many), and Imperial Project / Goa Syndrome (all of which were released on MP3.com). Also, any remix by MWNN and AP is gold.
- altacc 3y ago
  Whilst I do like a lot of Infected Mushroom's stuff I've always seen them as the cheesy, commercial, "like it ironically" side of psy-trance. I don't consider them truly representative of psy-trance, at least the eurocentric versions I listen to. Although I do like the variety that has developed, especially when there's multi-room club and it's possible to walk around and find whatever fits your current mood and energy level.
  - skhr0680 3y ago
    > Whilst I do like a lot of Infected Mushroom's stuff I've always seen them as the cheesy, commercial, "like it ironically" side of psy-trance. You're going to have to trust me that as far as Israeli producers go, IM are neither cheesy nor commercial. > I don't consider them truly representative of psy-trance, at least the eurocentric versions I listen to. Ehhh, that's veering way too close to "metal genres" territory for me
atkbrah 3y ago
Indeed. In the past tunes would keep evolving. Now everything has that tuba bassline, soft sounding kick and different kind of snarling sounds with echo and that's it.
0xEF 3y ago
I'm a new-comer to the genres, myself, despite my age. For some reason the D&B/trances/technos scene never clicked with me back in my metal days, but it fills a gap that needed filling in my life now. That said, there's plenty of great modern artists, too...however, some amazing stuff was happening back in the day that I missed out on, and it is a treat to discover that now.
- RRRA 3y ago
  Simon Posford enters the chat
  - tsujamin 3y ago
    His album during covid was 11/10 (very different though) https://simonposford.bandcamp.com/album/flux-contemplation-portrait-of-an-artist-in-isolation https://simonposford.bandcamp.com/album/flux-contemplation-p...
    - yard2010 3y ago
      I know right? I have that weird feeling that I still don't fully understand it.. I really liked it though. It's different. Shpongle is just.. magical
  - Workaccount2 3y ago
    My top artist of all music artists. Everything that dude touched turned to gold. I've never found another artist who made music as unique and complex as him. Listening to Shpongle, its basically impossible to place the time period its from. It's totally unique music in it's own category.
    - dingnuts 3y ago
      that's funny, I loved Shpongle when I was younger but it sounds SUPER dated to me now. Just sounds like the early aughts to me Shpongle also "just" sounds like "normal" psytrance with added flute, to me, after many hours of listening, and the flute is Raja Ram's addition iirc. I stopped following Posford after Younger Brother - Vaccine came out, though.. never could get into that one, and I always found Hallucinogen to be "just like Shpongle but not as good"
blackhaz 3y ago
Fully agree, and hello from another dad here. There's no more stuff like Paps, Mumbo Jumbo, Double Dragon, Reefer Decree, Ticon, etc, and even the legendary Son Kite and Beat Bizzarre are not the same they've used to be in the heydays of the genre. I think the apogee was in the early 2000s, the early releases of Iboga Records. I've switched to the [dub] techno scene a few years ago, and it looks like there's much more psychedelia and overall creative stuff going on over there now. Azu Tiwaline, Al Wootton, Deadbeat, Claudio PRC, Ntogn, Luigi Tozzi, Feral, and so on. Party goes on!
- nuc 3y ago
  Dad #3 here, and I concur. Though more progressive and tribal than the others, Antix's "Lull" album epitomized the early '00s sound for me. Minilogue managed to keep the vibe alive a bit longer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgiL7lsIATA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgiL7lsIATA Lastly, yes, the techno scene does scratch that itch for atmosphere and psychedelia. I've been to a few techno parties and was surprised by the striking similarities to that '00s sound. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87y49RmWJeg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87y49RmWJeg
- joloooo 3y ago
  Thanks for all the new recs! Loving what I've heard so far. Ntogn is a vibe
  - blackhaz 3y ago
    Glad you've liked it! Check out Planetary Assault Systems, Forward Strategy Group, Silent Servant, Xhin, Aes Dana, Function, Cio d'Or. Lots and lots of modern, interesting music! Oh, and how could I have forgotten Rambadu?
harel 3y ago
Your dad knows what he is talking about. I feel the same, and the sentiment is shared by many. They are having retro parties now, and new productions of the "goa" sound.

Having grown up with psytrance, I find that 25 years later the modern stuff just sounds like a cheap, low-effort pastiche of what psytrance used to be. And... I just became my Dad.

TonyTrapp 3y ago

Happens probably to anyone loving a genre for an extended amount of time. Trance, Drum & Bass, Psytrance, you hear that sentiment everywhere.

meow_cat 3y ago
I really wonder if this is 1) Nostalgia.Obviously, the first tracks you heard were your introduction to the genre, so they will have emotional value. 2) First-mover advantage, for the lack of a better word. Obviously you perceive every new track t_i in the context of t_{0..i-1} that you already know. Maybe track t_443, which sounds cheap and commercial now, would have sounded innovative if you heard it as t_33? 3) Genre saturation. How many truly new tracks can be done in psytrance (or any other specific genre) while still being psytrance, before every track sounds like one that was done before? I don't envy the poor souls trying to express individuality in established, specialized genres. I also wonder whether we could use deep learning to learn representations unbiased by our own history with the genres, and analyze this in a more unbiased way. But I'm also sure you can make the model say whatever you want if you bend the data the right way :)
- Fnoord 3y ago
  Maybe, I don't think so. The first time I heard goa trance it was in 90s, Astral Projection. It was too weird for me. I couldn't stand it! Then in the early 00s I got introduced to psytrance. I started listening to it. Then I refound my love for goa trance (see my other post for examples) and I fell in love. It was an exciting time for me. I fell in love with two women, I used my first time MDMA and mushrooms later on, all of this while I learned to know this fantastic genre. One could argue it was related to my first listening of AP. But I don't think I heard MWNN before, and I instantly loved it, and he has a very distinctive style. If you take Shakta, he's also made psytance, same with Miranda, MWNN, AP, etc etc but I don't like it. Also, back in the 90s I listened to a lot of progressive trance as well (the usual names: Paul Oakenfold, Paul van Dyk, stuff mixed by Tiesto, Ferry Corsten, etc etc). How would you explain that? Plus I like a lot more electronic music, mostly (but not solely) from 90s. I even like some psydub/psybient. But psytance? Nope. Well, barely.
- I_Am_Nous 3y ago
  I think the bar has been raised by what even casual producers can do with DAWs. I gave a listen to a classic drum and bass album recently (Wormhole by Ed Rush and Optical) and while I really enjoyed it, by the end of the album I can kind of tell how many of the various samples were used over and over again. The Wikipedia article[1] lists the hardware/software they used, and it looks like the recording computer was an Apple LCII. So a lot of what they were able to make seems like it would have been limited by what hardware they were able to finagle. Compare that to a similarly layered and voiced project in a modern DAW. While the compute requirements have gone up drastically, the complexity the DAW has compressed into a single screen would make it trivial to make a similar album now (from a purely technical standpoint - the album is still the work of an artist). 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole_(album) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole_(album)

globular-toast 3y ago

I stopped listening around the time of Infected Mushroom's Vicious Delicious. The genre seemed to jump the shark around that time. Looking back Goa Trance was the real trance and by 2000 it was already starting to go down the shitter.

Fnoord 3y ago
Goa trance was a great genre in the 90s. After that it went downwards (with Filteria & Suntrip 2004 revival from death of the genre but on life support). It got completely overshadowed by this abomination called psytance which I don't like. The specific album you mentioned, has two tracks I like (Heavyweight and Suliman) because I saw a fellow on YouTube using a guitar to 1:1 the riffs. It was that good that I donated to him. But otherwise I've never been much of a fan of IM. I find they're overrated. When I think of goa trance I think of names like Astral Projection, Green Nuns Of The Revolution, Hallucinogen, Man With No Name, Miranda, Prana, Transwave and many of these dabbled into the psytrance genre. Some came back! I'll mention some of my favourites: Hallucinogen live at DNA Lounge (2001?), Paul Oakenfold's Essential Mix ('Goa silver and gold mix', '94), any 90s live set by Astral Projection (there are many), and Imperial Project / Goa Syndrome (all of which were released on MP3.com). Also, any remix by MWNN and AP is gold.
altacc 3y ago
Whilst I do like a lot of Infected Mushroom's stuff I've always seen them as the cheesy, commercial, "like it ironically" side of psy-trance. I don't consider them truly representative of psy-trance, at least the eurocentric versions I listen to. Although I do like the variety that has developed, especially when there's multi-room club and it's possible to walk around and find whatever fits your current mood and energy level.
- skhr0680 3y ago
  > Whilst I do like a lot of Infected Mushroom's stuff I've always seen them as the cheesy, commercial, "like it ironically" side of psy-trance. You're going to have to trust me that as far as Israeli producers go, IM are neither cheesy nor commercial. > I don't consider them truly representative of psy-trance, at least the eurocentric versions I listen to. Ehhh, that's veering way too close to "metal genres" territory for me

atkbrah 3y ago

Indeed. In the past tunes would keep evolving. Now everything has that tuba bassline, soft sounding kick and different kind of snarling sounds with echo and that's it.

0xEF 3y ago

I'm a new-comer to the genres, myself, despite my age. For some reason the D&B/trances/technos scene never clicked with me back in my metal days, but it fills a gap that needed filling in my life now. That said, there's plenty of great modern artists, too...however, some amazing stuff was happening back in the day that I missed out on, and it is a treat to discover that now.

RRRA 3y ago
Simon Posford enters the chat
- tsujamin 3y ago
  His album during covid was 11/10 (very different though) https://simonposford.bandcamp.com/album/flux-contemplation-portrait-of-an-artist-in-isolation https://simonposford.bandcamp.com/album/flux-contemplation-p...
  - yard2010 3y ago
    I know right? I have that weird feeling that I still don't fully understand it.. I really liked it though. It's different. Shpongle is just.. magical
- Workaccount2 3y ago
  My top artist of all music artists. Everything that dude touched turned to gold. I've never found another artist who made music as unique and complex as him. Listening to Shpongle, its basically impossible to place the time period its from. It's totally unique music in it's own category.
  - dingnuts 3y ago
    that's funny, I loved Shpongle when I was younger but it sounds SUPER dated to me now. Just sounds like the early aughts to me Shpongle also "just" sounds like "normal" psytrance with added flute, to me, after many hours of listening, and the flute is Raja Ram's addition iirc. I stopped following Posford after Younger Brother - Vaccine came out, though.. never could get into that one, and I always found Hallucinogen to be "just like Shpongle but not as good"

blackhaz 3y ago

Fully agree, and hello from another dad here. There's no more stuff like Paps, Mumbo Jumbo, Double Dragon, Reefer Decree, Ticon, etc, and even the legendary Son Kite and Beat Bizzarre are not the same they've used to be in the heydays of the genre. I think the apogee was in the early 2000s, the early releases of Iboga Records. I've switched to the [dub] techno scene a few years ago, and it looks like there's much more psychedelia and overall creative stuff going on over there now. Azu Tiwaline, Al Wootton, Deadbeat, Claudio PRC, Ntogn, Luigi Tozzi, Feral, and so on. Party goes on!

nuc 3y ago
Dad #3 here, and I concur. Though more progressive and tribal than the others, Antix's "Lull" album epitomized the early '00s sound for me. Minilogue managed to keep the vibe alive a bit longer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgiL7lsIATA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgiL7lsIATA Lastly, yes, the techno scene does scratch that itch for atmosphere and psychedelia. I've been to a few techno parties and was surprised by the striking similarities to that '00s sound. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87y49RmWJeg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87y49RmWJeg
joloooo 3y ago
Thanks for all the new recs! Loving what I've heard so far. Ntogn is a vibe
- blackhaz 3y ago
  Glad you've liked it! Check out Planetary Assault Systems, Forward Strategy Group, Silent Servant, Xhin, Aes Dana, Function, Cio d'Or. Lots and lots of modern, interesting music! Oh, and how could I have forgotten Rambadu?

harel 3y ago

Your dad knows what he is talking about. I feel the same, and the sentiment is shared by many. They are having retro parties now, and new productions of the "goa" sound.