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>...It was just $75k. There were no meaningful gains in measures of happiness beyond that magic number. That was contradicted by later research: >...But in 20

by opo 3y ago

>...It was just $75k. There were no meaningful gains in measures of happiness beyond that magic number. That was contradicted by later research: >...But in 2021, Killingsworth, a happiness researcher and senior fellow at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School, found that happiness does not plateau after $75,000, and that “experienced well-being” can continue to rise with income well beyond $200,000. Killingsworth than worked with Kahneman to do a more complete survey: >...The study reached two big conclusions: First, that “happiness continues to rise with income even in the high range of incomes” for the majority of people, showing that for many of us, on average having more money can make us increasingly happier. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/03/08/money-wealth-happiness-study/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/03/08/money-wea...

rbanffy 3y ago
It should also vary a lot with age. $75K would make me a very happy late teen, but wouldn’t pay my bills now, and that’s not because of inflation - it’s because now I have a family, a mortgage, and a lot of sizeable expenses.
somenameforme 3y ago
The first thing I tend to do when finding a study reporting in a way that seems counter-intuitive, to say nothing of one that contradicts previous findings, is to go to their methods. There are quite frequently some pretty glaring differences, and that's certainly the case here [1]. The original study was carried out by directly surveying people, and measuring their subjective perspectives. Their answers were then contrasted against their income. The later study was carried out with a smartphone app, which participants opted into at their discretion, asked at a frequency completely up to the participants, and then asked them about their experiences just prior to the notification. I'm not really sure what that's measuring, but it seems fairly safe to say that it's something quite different. For instance ask a grossly obese man how he feels at any given point in time and it's probably pretty good. He's likely relaxing, eating, and otherwise engaging in various forms of self indulgent behavior. But gauge him on his overall life satisfaction and it's likely to be abysmal. Vice versa, query a mother who's raising 4 young children and, at any given point in time, and they're often not going to be having the best of times. Yet, nonetheless their overall life satisfaction is likely to be quite high. Basically look at any poll on various forms of contentedness, Gallup carries out an annual one here. [2] And you'll find the results are nothing like what you'd expect, even more so if one thinks money can provide anything beyond what one can buy. The 'most positive' places are in Latin America - Panama, El Salvador, Guatemala, Columbia, Mexico, etc. The 'least negative' places are in Eastern Europe and Asia: China, Kyrgyzstan, Vietnam, Estonia, Poland, Kazakhstan, etc. These results don't leave much room for money doing anything beyond ensuring ones base needs can be comfortably met. [1] - https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2208661120#sec-3 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2208661120#sec-3 [2] - https://www.gallup.com/analytics/349280/gallup-global-emotions-report.aspx https://www.gallup.com/analytics/349280/gallup-global-emotio...
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  I always considered it of utmost importance for the rich to ensure the belief that money does not aid in happiness beyond the most basic needs, that it is in fact a burden beyond that.
  - somenameforme 3y ago
    Even if you want to take this sort of world view, I think going the other direction makes more sense. Trying to sell the idea that you can be happy if you just earn a few more dollars, or buy this product, or take this drug, is an amazing incentive for trying to ensure people keep spinning in a endless hamster wheel, and creating artificial demand for basically anything and everything imaginable. If people actually stopped to introspect, or stopped believing that money was like a drug for the ails of their life, our entire economic system would come to a screeching halt, to say nothing of absolutely wrecking the profits of near to every major corporation in existence. There's actually even historical precedent for this. One of the hypothesized factors for the fall of Rome was the rise of Christianity. You went from a nation massively dedicated to product in pursuit of glorification of the Gods, alongside an emperor holding a pseudo-deistic role, to one where you have 'the meek shall inherit the Earth', 'it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God', and so on. It was probably just a minor factor but it almost certainly played at least some real role.
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      Having a lot of money is indeed something that isolates against a lot of problems as you can just get people to solve them/don't need to care for unexpected costs. If you are not afflicted by some bad diseases or certain personal problems, a lot of money brings a lot of freedom to pursue whatever you fancy. That said, a few more dollars are indeed irrelevant to happiness beyond a certain level, but orders of magnitude might not be.
      - somenameforme 3y ago

by opo 3y ago

rbanffy 3y ago

It should also vary a lot with age. $75K would make me a very happy late teen, but wouldn’t pay my bills now, and that’s not because of inflation - it’s because now I have a family, a mortgage, and a lot of sizeable expenses.

somenameforme 3y ago

The first thing I tend to do when finding a study reporting in a way that seems counter-intuitive, to say nothing of one that contradicts previous findings, is to go to their methods. There are quite frequently some pretty glaring differences, and that's certainly the case here [1]. The original study was carried out by directly surveying people, and measuring their subjective perspectives. Their answers were then contrasted against their income. The later study was carried out with a smartphone app, which participants opted into at their discretion, asked at a frequency completely up to the participants, and then asked them about their experiences just prior to the notification. I'm not really sure what that's measuring, but it seems fairly safe to say that it's something quite different. For instance ask a grossly obese man how he feels at any given point in time and it's probably pretty good. He's likely relaxing, eating, and otherwise engaging in various forms of self indulgent behavior. But gauge him on his overall life satisfaction and it's likely to be abysmal. Vice versa, query a mother who's raising 4 young children and, at any given point in time, and they're often not going to be having the best of times. Yet, nonetheless their overall life satisfaction is likely to be quite high. Basically look at any poll on various forms of contentedness, Gallup carries out an annual one here. [2] And you'll find the results are nothing like what you'd expect, even more so if one thinks money can provide anything beyond what one can buy. The 'most positive' places are in Latin America - Panama, El Salvador, Guatemala, Columbia, Mexico, etc. The 'least negative' places are in Eastern Europe and Asia: China, Kyrgyzstan, Vietnam, Estonia, Poland, Kazakhstan, etc. These results don't leave much room for money doing anything beyond ensuring ones base needs can be comfortably met. [1] - https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2208661120#sec-3 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2208661120#sec-3 [2] - https://www.gallup.com/analytics/349280/gallup-global-emotions-report.aspx https://www.gallup.com/analytics/349280/gallup-global-emotio...

RandomLensman 3y ago
I always considered it of utmost importance for the rich to ensure the belief that money does not aid in happiness beyond the most basic needs, that it is in fact a burden beyond that.
- somenameforme 3y ago
  Even if you want to take this sort of world view, I think going the other direction makes more sense. Trying to sell the idea that you can be happy if you just earn a few more dollars, or buy this product, or take this drug, is an amazing incentive for trying to ensure people keep spinning in a endless hamster wheel, and creating artificial demand for basically anything and everything imaginable. If people actually stopped to introspect, or stopped believing that money was like a drug for the ails of their life, our entire economic system would come to a screeching halt, to say nothing of absolutely wrecking the profits of near to every major corporation in existence. There's actually even historical precedent for this. One of the hypothesized factors for the fall of Rome was the rise of Christianity. You went from a nation massively dedicated to product in pursuit of glorification of the Gods, alongside an emperor holding a pseudo-deistic role, to one where you have 'the meek shall inherit the Earth', 'it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God', and so on. It was probably just a minor factor but it almost certainly played at least some real role.
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    Having a lot of money is indeed something that isolates against a lot of problems as you can just get people to solve them/don't need to care for unexpected costs. If you are not afflicted by some bad diseases or certain personal problems, a lot of money brings a lot of freedom to pursue whatever you fancy. That said, a few more dollars are indeed irrelevant to happiness beyond a certain level, but orders of magnitude might not be.
    - somenameforme 3y ago