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The way I’ve seen it explained is that Toyota is very good at developing and building combustion engines, which has given them a competitive edge for a very lon

The way I’ve seen it explained is that Toyota is very good at developing and building combustion engines, which has given them a competitive edge for a very long time, and they don’t want to give up that edge. There’s no guarantee that they’ll be good enough at building EVs to be among the top ranks of EV makers and that frightens them.

jjulius 3y ago
I mean, sure, I get that line of thinking, but it feels suicidal for them to be coming up with cockamamie ideas that nobody is asking for and have the potential to be significantly more dangerous than current offerings, rather than trying their best to move on with everyone else. That is to say, I'm not opposed to non-polluting alternatives to EVs, whatever that could look like, but... ammonia? I feel like they risk being even further behind the curve if they're not actively working on an EV.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  They have EVs out there now. Not in sufficient quantity yet though. For instance, here is their Dutch website (4 models, 2 vans and two passenger vehicles): https://www.toyota.nl/elektrisch-rijden/batterij-elektrisch https://www.toyota.nl/elektrisch-rijden/batterij-elektrisch
  - jjulius 3y ago
    I learned something today! Thanks. :)
serf 3y ago
I think that's an oversimplification of auto engineering, and more-so Toyota's strategy (whatever that is) Toyota offered quality that is unheard of at that economic point across the board; it isn't simply quality drivetrains, it's quality everything that leads to a reliable and trustworthy vehicle that has a high resale value. Now, I don't know why they're doing what they're doing with the alternative engine designs; but I do know that their manufacturing capability and research prowess is top-notch, and that they could pretty smoothly dive straight into EV by pulling strings with long-term partners. Their journey to full EV won't be the same as ground-up groups like Tesla/Rivian/Whatever. I don't think it should be viewed as a slip in expertise and capability -- I think it's more like a moon-shot.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Moonshots should have at least a remote chance of success. This is unhinged.
  - jbm 3y ago
    I'm going to take a break from bashing Toyota to suggest that this might just be a special use car or for particular circumstances that are not related to EVs. (The EV slant seems to be mostly from the deranged writer on the website.) The engine was shown by a Chinese partner of Toyota's (which is why the comments about Japan's geopolitical relations with China are extra ridiculous). It isn't going to kill EVs; China is all-in on EVs. Instead of the conspiratorial, let me go to something more realistic. Toyota is a Japanese company and not everyone's skills are going to transition to electric vehicles. For those left behind, funding research projects seems to be a sensible way to reward their efforts from the past.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      That's fair, the article seems to be low quality, but other news sources back this up to a large degree, what with Toyota being a 50% stakeholder in the engine project here that seems to be a pretty big move if it was done without their permission and cooperation, which they indicate they have engaged in. Note that new engine projects, especially if they include non-standard fuels aren't exactly cheap.
      - jbm 3y ago
        I didn't mean to imply it was done without their permission, but rather that it is just not a big deal and more likely a research project. At this point they would be in the world of alternative facts if they thought this was something for the mass market.
jacquesm 3y ago
Well, that may be so but what should frighten them more is to become utterly irrelevant. Drive trains always should have been a commodity. Toyota makes excellent cars and that's not just the engine, it's the whole package that makes them a brand worthy of some respect. Suggesting that an ammonia fueled vehicle is the solution for their insecurities is playing fast and loose with their perceived image as a safety and environmentally aware company. They couldn't have picked a worse fuel for a vehicle, even if you can make it work in the lab.

jjulius 3y ago

I mean, sure, I get that line of thinking, but it feels suicidal for them to be coming up with cockamamie ideas that nobody is asking for and have the potential to be significantly more dangerous than current offerings, rather than trying their best to move on with everyone else. That is to say, I'm not opposed to non-polluting alternatives to EVs, whatever that could look like, but... ammonia? I feel like they risk being even further behind the curve if they're not actively working on an EV.

jacquesm 3y ago
They have EVs out there now. Not in sufficient quantity yet though. For instance, here is their Dutch website (4 models, 2 vans and two passenger vehicles): https://www.toyota.nl/elektrisch-rijden/batterij-elektrisch https://www.toyota.nl/elektrisch-rijden/batterij-elektrisch
- jjulius 3y ago
  I learned something today! Thanks. :)

serf 3y ago

I think that's an oversimplification of auto engineering, and more-so Toyota's strategy (whatever that is) Toyota offered quality that is unheard of at that economic point across the board; it isn't simply quality drivetrains, it's quality everything that leads to a reliable and trustworthy vehicle that has a high resale value. Now, I don't know why they're doing what they're doing with the alternative engine designs; but I do know that their manufacturing capability and research prowess is top-notch, and that they could pretty smoothly dive straight into EV by pulling strings with long-term partners. Their journey to full EV won't be the same as ground-up groups like Tesla/Rivian/Whatever. I don't think it should be viewed as a slip in expertise and capability -- I think it's more like a moon-shot.

jacquesm 3y ago
Moonshots should have at least a remote chance of success. This is unhinged.
- jbm 3y ago
  I'm going to take a break from bashing Toyota to suggest that this might just be a special use car or for particular circumstances that are not related to EVs. (The EV slant seems to be mostly from the deranged writer on the website.) The engine was shown by a Chinese partner of Toyota's (which is why the comments about Japan's geopolitical relations with China are extra ridiculous). It isn't going to kill EVs; China is all-in on EVs. Instead of the conspiratorial, let me go to something more realistic. Toyota is a Japanese company and not everyone's skills are going to transition to electric vehicles. For those left behind, funding research projects seems to be a sensible way to reward their efforts from the past.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    That's fair, the article seems to be low quality, but other news sources back this up to a large degree, what with Toyota being a 50% stakeholder in the engine project here that seems to be a pretty big move if it was done without their permission and cooperation, which they indicate they have engaged in. Note that new engine projects, especially if they include non-standard fuels aren't exactly cheap.
    - jbm 3y ago
      I didn't mean to imply it was done without their permission, but rather that it is just not a big deal and more likely a research project. At this point they would be in the world of alternative facts if they thought this was something for the mass market.

jacquesm 3y ago

Well, that may be so but what should frighten them more is to become utterly irrelevant. Drive trains always should have been a commodity. Toyota makes excellent cars and that's not just the engine, it's the whole package that makes them a brand worthy of some respect. Suggesting that an ammonia fueled vehicle is the solution for their insecurities is playing fast and loose with their perceived image as a safety and environmentally aware company. They couldn't have picked a worse fuel for a vehicle, even if you can make it work in the lab.