6 ms·

It didn't work with the mouse army, it made them into the mouse army.

lucubratory 3y ago
You... what? Do you have like a dystopian internal headcanon for how the book ended? "And then they all tore each other to pieces shortly afterwards because they were poorly socialised, the end.", "And eventually all the young girls became addicts and wasted away doing nothing because they didn't have a strong parental figure that was human, the end.", that sort of thing?
- maxerickson 3y ago
  It's been a while, but I was just referencing the events that occur in the book. They are an effective force, but they aren't actualized individuals. The primer harmed them.
  - lucubratory 3y ago
    They have formed into an effective military force because the Primer is designed to teach children how to deal with their life situation, and it doesn't fail at that job even when the life situation is extreme (like how the Primer understands that Nell is being abused and tries very hard to get her out of the abusive environment). The Mouse Army are in the middle of a war where WMDs are being used and they're all little girls who can't rely on anyone around them for help, so the Primer teaches them to form not just effective soldiers but an effective military force, in order to secure their escape from the war. Once they're out of the extreme situation, it will presumably teach them more normally once more, just like Nell's Primer adjusted back once Nell was out of the abusive environment. I'm not exactly going to bat for child soldiering here, but I find the idea that the Primer harmed them very strange. The Primer saved them from dying in a horrific war where they had no allies and successfully got them out of that war.
    - hosh 3y ago
      They may have lived, but they turned into autonomous extensions of the Primer. Nell was the only real person, so of course the Mouse Army responded to her. As the other commenter said -- the mouse army were not actualized individuals.
      - lucubratory 3y ago
        I don't agree with that characterisation of events. The Mouse Army grew up in extreme conditions, and the Primer tried its hardest to give them the skills and organisation they needed to get out of those conditions, because otherwise they would die. I see no reason to believe that the Primer would not continue to raise them properly now that they're out of that situation, just like the Primer returned to normal for Nell once it had successfully gotten her out of an abusive environment. They're not slaves or broken people.
        hosh 3y ago
        I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree then. From my perspective, that characterization has taken on an even more interesting turn now that I have read through a history of Chinese martial arts, and its role throughout the centuries and modernization. Regardless of whether the project succeeded or failed, that subplot was very much in line with the themes and patterns of Chinese history.
javajosh 3y ago
Yes, this is a disturbing part of the book. Quite fascist, arguably racist and, in the end, unnecessary for the narrative. A big price to pay for little to no payoff.
- lucubratory 3y ago
  The idea that Chinese families give up their born infant babies because of gender is a racist extrapolation of sex-selective abortion, yes. It was one of the big issues I had with the book, along with some unnecessary racial slurs earlier. I don't see the fascism angle, though. What about the Mouse Army was a fascist story? I thought their story was good, aside from how the author justified the existence of this large group of unwanted children.
  - javajosh 3y ago
    The Mouse Army was indoctrinated by lesser primers to treat Nell as a their leader. It was a rare big whiff from Stephenson, because he presented all of this uncritically. The fact that a white girl would rule a few hundred thousand chinese girls went without comment because OF COURSE she would. And I'm the last person to be sensitive to this sort of thing! The racism felt very in-your-face even at the time, and this was well before the hyper sensitivity of the modern age. I love Stephenson though so I chalked it up to miscommunication/overreach/him being terrible at endings, etc.
    - lucubratory 3y ago
      Oh that's interesting, Nell isn't Chinese? Isn't she born in China? I'm sure you're right, like I said it's been years since I read the book, but my mental picture of her is certainly of a young Chinese girl. I thought it was only the abusive stepdad that was white.
      - tialaramex 3y ago
        I don't think we're told Nell's ancestry in any detail, but, she's the daughter of Tequila and Bud. Tequila appears to be a typical "white trash" uneducated young woman who is living in the LT but whose ancestors are probably American or European, the discussion of the Freedom Machine (Diamond Age contraception) strongly suggests Tequila sees herself roughly this way. Bud is deliberately your generic Cyberpunk protagonist, if he has any Chinese ancestry it's unlikely he recognises or celebrates it. Yes, the LT is in China. It's an analogous situation to Hong Kong, physically it is in China, but as its name suggests ("Leased Territories") it is controlled by outsiders, hence the anger of groups like the Fists.
krisoft 3y ago
What do you mean it "didn't work"? The goals of the people who gave the books to the mouse army were different than the goals of the original primer's creators, therefore it had a different result. How is that "didn't work"?
- maxerickson 3y ago
  Outcomes primarily beneficial to the girls were not available with the book they had.

You... what? Do you have like a dystopian internal headcanon for how the book ended? "And then they all tore each other to pieces shortly afterwards because they were poorly socialised, the end.", "And eventually all the young girls became addicts and wasted away doing nothing because they didn't have a strong parental figure that was human, the end.", that sort of thing?

maxerickson 3y ago
It's been a while, but I was just referencing the events that occur in the book. They are an effective force, but they aren't actualized individuals. The primer harmed them.
- lucubratory 3y ago
  They have formed into an effective military force because the Primer is designed to teach children how to deal with their life situation, and it doesn't fail at that job even when the life situation is extreme (like how the Primer understands that Nell is being abused and tries very hard to get her out of the abusive environment). The Mouse Army are in the middle of a war where WMDs are being used and they're all little girls who can't rely on anyone around them for help, so the Primer teaches them to form not just effective soldiers but an effective military force, in order to secure their escape from the war. Once they're out of the extreme situation, it will presumably teach them more normally once more, just like Nell's Primer adjusted back once Nell was out of the abusive environment. I'm not exactly going to bat for child soldiering here, but I find the idea that the Primer harmed them very strange. The Primer saved them from dying in a horrific war where they had no allies and successfully got them out of that war.
  - hosh 3y ago
    They may have lived, but they turned into autonomous extensions of the Primer. Nell was the only real person, so of course the Mouse Army responded to her. As the other commenter said -- the mouse army were not actualized individuals.
    - lucubratory 3y ago
      I don't agree with that characterisation of events. The Mouse Army grew up in extreme conditions, and the Primer tried its hardest to give them the skills and organisation they needed to get out of those conditions, because otherwise they would die. I see no reason to believe that the Primer would not continue to raise them properly now that they're out of that situation, just like the Primer returned to normal for Nell once it had successfully gotten her out of an abusive environment. They're not slaves or broken people.
      - hosh 3y ago
        I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree then. From my perspective, that characterization has taken on an even more interesting turn now that I have read through a history of Chinese martial arts, and its role throughout the centuries and modernization. Regardless of whether the project succeeded or failed, that subplot was very much in line with the themes and patterns of Chinese history.

javajosh 3y ago

Yes, this is a disturbing part of the book. Quite fascist, arguably racist and, in the end, unnecessary for the narrative. A big price to pay for little to no payoff.

lucubratory 3y ago
The idea that Chinese families give up their born infant babies because of gender is a racist extrapolation of sex-selective abortion, yes. It was one of the big issues I had with the book, along with some unnecessary racial slurs earlier. I don't see the fascism angle, though. What about the Mouse Army was a fascist story? I thought their story was good, aside from how the author justified the existence of this large group of unwanted children.
- javajosh 3y ago
  The Mouse Army was indoctrinated by lesser primers to treat Nell as a their leader. It was a rare big whiff from Stephenson, because he presented all of this uncritically. The fact that a white girl would rule a few hundred thousand chinese girls went without comment because OF COURSE she would. And I'm the last person to be sensitive to this sort of thing! The racism felt very in-your-face even at the time, and this was well before the hyper sensitivity of the modern age. I love Stephenson though so I chalked it up to miscommunication/overreach/him being terrible at endings, etc.
  - lucubratory 3y ago
    Oh that's interesting, Nell isn't Chinese? Isn't she born in China? I'm sure you're right, like I said it's been years since I read the book, but my mental picture of her is certainly of a young Chinese girl. I thought it was only the abusive stepdad that was white.
    - tialaramex 3y ago
      I don't think we're told Nell's ancestry in any detail, but, she's the daughter of Tequila and Bud. Tequila appears to be a typical "white trash" uneducated young woman who is living in the LT but whose ancestors are probably American or European, the discussion of the Freedom Machine (Diamond Age contraception) strongly suggests Tequila sees herself roughly this way. Bud is deliberately your generic Cyberpunk protagonist, if he has any Chinese ancestry it's unlikely he recognises or celebrates it. Yes, the LT is in China. It's an analogous situation to Hong Kong, physically it is in China, but as its name suggests ("Leased Territories") it is controlled by outsiders, hence the anger of groups like the Fists.

krisoft 3y ago

What do you mean it "didn't work"? The goals of the people who gave the books to the mouse army were different than the goals of the original primer's creators, therefore it had a different result. How is that "didn't work"?

maxerickson 3y ago
Outcomes primarily beneficial to the girls were not available with the book they had.