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As it relates to the blame for this most unfortunate event, Gaza is pointing figure at Israel, and Israel is pointing fingers at Gaza - with both sides claiming

As it relates to the blame for this most unfortunate event, Gaza is pointing figure at Israel, and Israel is pointing fingers at Gaza - with both sides claiming certainty and future proof on their position. We do not yet know who to blame for this event. Let us keep emotions level and wait for the facts, peddling blame and "they's" through unsubstantiated claims is dangerous and can be irreparable. Until the facts come out, it's best to stay neutral on this specific event.

mcv 3y ago
The reality is of course that both are wrong. Both are using excessive force and are needlessly killing civilians. Neither have any business putting all the blame on the other side, regardless of who actually fired this rocket. The fact that it's entirely credible that either side could have done it, says enough about the nature of the warring sides.
- megous 3y ago
  Reality is also that only one side is laying a complete siege and endangering people it has duty to take care of as an occupation power under international law. And only one side is now continuing to kill and maim civilians on a mass scale, and destroying a city.
  - nxm 3y ago
    Hamas purposely stores weapons in apartment building and hospitals. Israel does its best to avoid civilian casualties - Hamas intentionally tries to kill as many innocent civilians as possible. It’s Hamas that intentionally killed innocent babies and raped women - you already forgot?
    - defrost 3y ago
      Which is no justification for the IDF intentionally or "accidentally" killing innocent babies and women either - men also, of course, as not all males in Gaza support Hamas by a long shot .. you already forgot?
      - dzhiurgis 3y ago
        Not 100% of people support Putin either - should we allow Russia to attack Ukraine?
        mcv 3y ago
        Not sure why you're bringing this up. Are you arguing for attacks on Russian civilians? Please don't. Although they share an occupation of a weaker country by a more powerful one that seeks to destroy them, everything else about the situation is entirely different. Let's try not to mix up those different tragedies.
        sceptical 3y ago
        That is not accurate. Israel is seeking to destroy Hamas, not Gaza. Hamas must be utterly destroyed. Unfortunately they hide among the civilians, cowards as they are.
        megous 3y ago
        I also agree that solution to this whole conflict is very simple, and that it's to totally destroy one's opponent. It's a very very good solution. There should be no negotiation and no diplomacy. I think Hamas is said to have the same goal, destroy Israel, but I don't know, maybe TV is lying to me. And in any case, Isreal should be actually able to implement this. I trust it! It's a local superpower! So let's support a realistic solution and the side that can actually implement it, and end this loong conflict, because Hamas is clearly not the side that can practically do it. It will finally be the final solution so to say. (Because then there will be no conflict. So it's final, you know.) Palestinians will forget about it all, and there will be peace from then on, and ever after. There will be no national shame for them like in 1948, because this time, we're also doing it for them, because Hamas is also bad for them. They'll have to leave Gaza for a while, but that's ok. They'll be fine in the desert for a while. I've heard the good people from UN do take care of people in such unfortunate situations. It's not really our problem. There has to be no nuance this time!
        3y ago
    - aaomidi 3y ago
      https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2018/6/18/the-fallacy-of-israels-human-shields-claims-in-gaza https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2018/6/18/the-fallacy-of-... https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2014/07/jeremy-bowens-gaza-notebook-i-saw-no-evidence-hamas-using-palestinians-human https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2014/07/jeremy-bowens-gaz... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#2008%E2%80%932009_Gaza_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#2008%E2%80%932009... https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1193&context=fac_articles https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a... (This article is honestly, one of the most shiver-inducing ones) Honestly, for how ubiquitous this claim is, I've never been able to find more than a handful of clips of urban warfare (?) I don't think it's that much of a surprise that in the world's most densest urban area, militants will be in a city? Either way, "human shields" isn't a valid defense. Especially if you don't provide evidence for __every single instance__ you're causing civilian damage. Edit: I decided to end up doing more research on this. https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/015/2009/en/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/015/2009/en/ Apparently makes a claim that there was no evidence of human shields in the major war then. Honestly - I feel like this is one of those situations where an entity has lied so much about a specific thing, that takes a life on its own. It's how journalists don't fact check cops and just report their reports as fact. I'm guessing a similar thing has happened here. I mean, we've seen how dangerous not supporting Israel has been in terms of reputational damage. -- Edit 2: Even more research. I did find https://stratcomcoe.org/publications/hybrid-threats-hamas-use-of-human-shields-in-gaza/87 https://stratcomcoe.org/publications/hybrid-threats-hamas-us... Seeing this is apparently from NATO, I assumed there'd be more to say here. But the list of incidents they referenced are primarily "IDF Spokesperson".
    - mcv 3y ago
      > Israel does its best to avoid civilian casualties If true, then Israel's "best" is not very good, because Israel has already made far more civilian casualties than Hamas over the past couple of days. And also over the past 2 decades. No, I don't think Israel is doing its best. At best, they're paying lip service to the idea of avoiding civilian casualties, but it's pretty clear that to many people in Israel, including military and civilian leadership, the lives of Palestinian civilians aren't worth much. It is true that Hamas tries to kill as many civilians as possible, and in that sense they are undoubtedly the more evil party (but evil does not justify more evil), but the reason Hamas does that, is to provoke exactly this kind of overly brutal retaliation from Israel. Because then more Palestinians will be confronted by their kids and neighbours being massacred by Israel, and they will be radicalised and willing to take up arms to avenge their family. And Israel obliges. In this sense, Israel is helping Hamas, enabling their recruitment, and keeping them alive. If Israel really wants peace, an end to this violence, and avoiding civilian casualties, then they must be massive idiots, because they are instrumental in keeping the violence going, and Hamas is playing them like a fiddle. Note that the real leadership of Hamas is not in Gaza at all, but in Qatar.
      - raxxorraxor 3y ago
        > the lives of Palestinian civilians aren't worth much. True, a decade long conflict takes its toll, messages that advocate genocide do also influence opinion. And still I think Israel puts more value on Palestinian life than the martyrs attacking it. Also, Israels military tactics are quite "unbloody" compared to other conflicts, i.e. Syria, where there is deployment of sarin gas on civilians. The Palestinian population is played like a fiddle. I don't think Hamas is too happy with the current results of their aggression.
        mcv 3y ago
        > Also, Israels military tactics are quite "unbloody" compared to other conflicts, i.e. Syria, where there is deployment of sarin gas on civilians. Is that your standard? Before this new escalation, Israel had killed 14,212 Palestinians since 2000. I'd say that's pretty bloody. But we should be happy that they're not actively gassing all Palestinians... > I don't think Hamas is too happy with the current results of their aggression. Why not?
  - raxxorraxor 3y ago
    Reality is also that an attack needs a strong response so that the attacker knows or slowly learns that there are severe costs to such an action.
    - megous 3y ago
      Ok, so explain this then https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-cas... Israel has been doing what you're saying for decades. Yet they now got even bigger attack.
      - raxxorraxor 3y ago
        What is there to explain? This statistic says something about the military capability. What do you believe it says? I think by total numbers underline that the side with more military capability does show restraint. Most conflicts are way shorter with way more deaths. Since 2000 there were over 10,000 rockets fired at Israel. It is not because of the lack of trying that casualties in Israel are that low.
        mcv 3y ago
        It also shows that if the forceful response is meant to make the attacker learn, it's not working. Israel has made forceful responses for decades, and it didn't change a thing.
  - weatherlite 3y ago
    Reality is White House says evidence shows it was a Palestinian misfire. So bummer for you I guess.
    - megous 3y ago
      Illegal siege is a misfire? Thousands of bombs killing thousands of civilians are misfired? Or what are you reacting to?
    - bluish29 3y ago
      Do you mean the same white house whose president said that he saw pictures and evidence of beheaded babies and then retracted it quietly by an official? [1] The lie that spread so much and propagated through the western news outlet. So I wouldn't have that trust if I were you. [1] https://checkyourfact.com/2023/10/12/fact-check-did-hamas-behead-babies/ https://checkyourfact.com/2023/10/12/fact-check-did-hamas-be...
      - weatherlite 3y ago
        The evidence does point out that it is more likely a Palestinian accident than an Israeli strike. Nothing is conclusive of course nor will it probably ever be, but that's what bbc, official Dutch government website nos.nl (https://nos.nl/collectie/13959/artikel/2494578-wat-explodeerde-bij-het-ziekenhuis-in-gaza-luchtaanval-onwaarschijnlijk https://nos.nl/collectie/13959/artikel/2494578-wat-explodeer...) and other sources I've read are saying. And the official White House statement. "While we continue to collect information, our current assessment, based on analysis of overhead imagery, intercepts and open-source information, is that Israel is not responsible for the explosion at the hospital in Gaza yesterday,” Watson said in a statement on Wednesday." https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/18/politics/us-intel-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/18/politics/us-intel-gaza-ho... So most likely Palestinian misfire, which won't be the first time btw. Also the 500 death count is quite likely way more than the real number of casualties.
        bluish29 3y ago
        This does not have anything to do with my comment. I was replying to someone who is basing his claim on what the White House says. Which is proven that it spread misinformation and claims based on false evidence (or even lack of it at all) before, so it is not a trustworthy source in itself. Although that, Biden is saying that the other side is responsible for the hospital attack [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYF8MyRhKDY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYF8MyRhKDY
- identifyingthe 3y ago
  Were they targeting according to location or identity? How did they positively identify the target? Don't the rest of us have imagery. Laws of war state that civilians and medical personnel (the persons with the crosses on their helmets and uniforms who take oaths to do no harm) are not to be fired upon unless they are firing upon you. When the laws of war apply, the chain of command is searched for the parties that can and should have sufficient evidence of their operations to prove their case. Whether or not the laws of war applied, there is prosecution for war crimes (once we return to rational cost reduction and equal due process).
  - tguvot 3y ago
    https://blogs.icrc.org/ilot/2017/08/14/objects-specially-protected-ihl/ https://blogs.icrc.org/ilot/2017/08/14/objects-specially-pro...
ammo1662 3y ago
It seems to be a JDAM, not a missle. Someone made a video to compare the sound. https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1714359458967466235 https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1714359458967466235

mcv 3y ago

The reality is of course that both are wrong. Both are using excessive force and are needlessly killing civilians. Neither have any business putting all the blame on the other side, regardless of who actually fired this rocket. The fact that it's entirely credible that either side could have done it, says enough about the nature of the warring sides.

megous 3y ago
Reality is also that only one side is laying a complete siege and endangering people it has duty to take care of as an occupation power under international law. And only one side is now continuing to kill and maim civilians on a mass scale, and destroying a city.
- nxm 3y ago
  Hamas purposely stores weapons in apartment building and hospitals. Israel does its best to avoid civilian casualties - Hamas intentionally tries to kill as many innocent civilians as possible. It’s Hamas that intentionally killed innocent babies and raped women - you already forgot?
  - defrost 3y ago
    Which is no justification for the IDF intentionally or "accidentally" killing innocent babies and women either - men also, of course, as not all males in Gaza support Hamas by a long shot .. you already forgot?
    - dzhiurgis 3y ago
      Not 100% of people support Putin either - should we allow Russia to attack Ukraine?
      - mcv 3y ago
        Not sure why you're bringing this up. Are you arguing for attacks on Russian civilians? Please don't. Although they share an occupation of a weaker country by a more powerful one that seeks to destroy them, everything else about the situation is entirely different. Let's try not to mix up those different tragedies.
        sceptical 3y ago
        That is not accurate. Israel is seeking to destroy Hamas, not Gaza. Hamas must be utterly destroyed. Unfortunately they hide among the civilians, cowards as they are.
        megous 3y ago
        I also agree that solution to this whole conflict is very simple, and that it's to totally destroy one's opponent. It's a very very good solution. There should be no negotiation and no diplomacy. I think Hamas is said to have the same goal, destroy Israel, but I don't know, maybe TV is lying to me. And in any case, Isreal should be actually able to implement this. I trust it! It's a local superpower! So let's support a realistic solution and the side that can actually implement it, and end this loong conflict, because Hamas is clearly not the side that can practically do it. It will finally be the final solution so to say. (Because then there will be no conflict. So it's final, you know.) Palestinians will forget about it all, and there will be peace from then on, and ever after. There will be no national shame for them like in 1948, because this time, we're also doing it for them, because Hamas is also bad for them. They'll have to leave Gaza for a while, but that's ok. They'll be fine in the desert for a while. I've heard the good people from UN do take care of people in such unfortunate situations. It's not really our problem. There has to be no nuance this time!
        3y ago
  - aaomidi 3y ago
    https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2018/6/18/the-fallacy-of-israels-human-shields-claims-in-gaza https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2018/6/18/the-fallacy-of-... https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2014/07/jeremy-bowens-gaza-notebook-i-saw-no-evidence-hamas-using-palestinians-human https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2014/07/jeremy-bowens-gaz... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#2008%E2%80%932009_Gaza_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#2008%E2%80%932009... https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1193&context=fac_articles https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a... (This article is honestly, one of the most shiver-inducing ones) Honestly, for how ubiquitous this claim is, I've never been able to find more than a handful of clips of urban warfare (?) I don't think it's that much of a surprise that in the world's most densest urban area, militants will be in a city? Either way, "human shields" isn't a valid defense. Especially if you don't provide evidence for __every single instance__ you're causing civilian damage. Edit: I decided to end up doing more research on this. https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/015/2009/en/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/015/2009/en/ Apparently makes a claim that there was no evidence of human shields in the major war then. Honestly - I feel like this is one of those situations where an entity has lied so much about a specific thing, that takes a life on its own. It's how journalists don't fact check cops and just report their reports as fact. I'm guessing a similar thing has happened here. I mean, we've seen how dangerous not supporting Israel has been in terms of reputational damage. -- Edit 2: Even more research. I did find https://stratcomcoe.org/publications/hybrid-threats-hamas-use-of-human-shields-in-gaza/87 https://stratcomcoe.org/publications/hybrid-threats-hamas-us... Seeing this is apparently from NATO, I assumed there'd be more to say here. But the list of incidents they referenced are primarily "IDF Spokesperson".
  - mcv 3y ago
    > Israel does its best to avoid civilian casualties If true, then Israel's "best" is not very good, because Israel has already made far more civilian casualties than Hamas over the past couple of days. And also over the past 2 decades. No, I don't think Israel is doing its best. At best, they're paying lip service to the idea of avoiding civilian casualties, but it's pretty clear that to many people in Israel, including military and civilian leadership, the lives of Palestinian civilians aren't worth much. It is true that Hamas tries to kill as many civilians as possible, and in that sense they are undoubtedly the more evil party (but evil does not justify more evil), but the reason Hamas does that, is to provoke exactly this kind of overly brutal retaliation from Israel. Because then more Palestinians will be confronted by their kids and neighbours being massacred by Israel, and they will be radicalised and willing to take up arms to avenge their family. And Israel obliges. In this sense, Israel is helping Hamas, enabling their recruitment, and keeping them alive. If Israel really wants peace, an end to this violence, and avoiding civilian casualties, then they must be massive idiots, because they are instrumental in keeping the violence going, and Hamas is playing them like a fiddle. Note that the real leadership of Hamas is not in Gaza at all, but in Qatar.
    - raxxorraxor 3y ago
      > the lives of Palestinian civilians aren't worth much. True, a decade long conflict takes its toll, messages that advocate genocide do also influence opinion. And still I think Israel puts more value on Palestinian life than the martyrs attacking it. Also, Israels military tactics are quite "unbloody" compared to other conflicts, i.e. Syria, where there is deployment of sarin gas on civilians. The Palestinian population is played like a fiddle. I don't think Hamas is too happy with the current results of their aggression.
      - mcv 3y ago
        > Also, Israels military tactics are quite "unbloody" compared to other conflicts, i.e. Syria, where there is deployment of sarin gas on civilians. Is that your standard? Before this new escalation, Israel had killed 14,212 Palestinians since 2000. I'd say that's pretty bloody. But we should be happy that they're not actively gassing all Palestinians... > I don't think Hamas is too happy with the current results of their aggression. Why not?
- raxxorraxor 3y ago
  Reality is also that an attack needs a strong response so that the attacker knows or slowly learns that there are severe costs to such an action.
  - megous 3y ago
    Ok, so explain this then https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-cas... Israel has been doing what you're saying for decades. Yet they now got even bigger attack.
    - raxxorraxor 3y ago
      What is there to explain? This statistic says something about the military capability. What do you believe it says? I think by total numbers underline that the side with more military capability does show restraint. Most conflicts are way shorter with way more deaths. Since 2000 there were over 10,000 rockets fired at Israel. It is not because of the lack of trying that casualties in Israel are that low.
      - mcv 3y ago
        It also shows that if the forceful response is meant to make the attacker learn, it's not working. Israel has made forceful responses for decades, and it didn't change a thing.
- weatherlite 3y ago
  Reality is White House says evidence shows it was a Palestinian misfire. So bummer for you I guess.
  - megous 3y ago
    Illegal siege is a misfire? Thousands of bombs killing thousands of civilians are misfired? Or what are you reacting to?
  - bluish29 3y ago
    Do you mean the same white house whose president said that he saw pictures and evidence of beheaded babies and then retracted it quietly by an official? [1] The lie that spread so much and propagated through the western news outlet. So I wouldn't have that trust if I were you. [1] https://checkyourfact.com/2023/10/12/fact-check-did-hamas-behead-babies/ https://checkyourfact.com/2023/10/12/fact-check-did-hamas-be...
    - weatherlite 3y ago
      The evidence does point out that it is more likely a Palestinian accident than an Israeli strike. Nothing is conclusive of course nor will it probably ever be, but that's what bbc, official Dutch government website nos.nl (https://nos.nl/collectie/13959/artikel/2494578-wat-explodeerde-bij-het-ziekenhuis-in-gaza-luchtaanval-onwaarschijnlijk https://nos.nl/collectie/13959/artikel/2494578-wat-explodeer...) and other sources I've read are saying. And the official White House statement. "While we continue to collect information, our current assessment, based on analysis of overhead imagery, intercepts and open-source information, is that Israel is not responsible for the explosion at the hospital in Gaza yesterday,” Watson said in a statement on Wednesday." https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/18/politics/us-intel-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/18/politics/us-intel-gaza-ho... So most likely Palestinian misfire, which won't be the first time btw. Also the 500 death count is quite likely way more than the real number of casualties.
      - bluish29 3y ago
        This does not have anything to do with my comment. I was replying to someone who is basing his claim on what the White House says. Which is proven that it spread misinformation and claims based on false evidence (or even lack of it at all) before, so it is not a trustworthy source in itself. Although that, Biden is saying that the other side is responsible for the hospital attack [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYF8MyRhKDY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYF8MyRhKDY
identifyingthe 3y ago
Were they targeting according to location or identity? How did they positively identify the target? Don't the rest of us have imagery. Laws of war state that civilians and medical personnel (the persons with the crosses on their helmets and uniforms who take oaths to do no harm) are not to be fired upon unless they are firing upon you. When the laws of war apply, the chain of command is searched for the parties that can and should have sufficient evidence of their operations to prove their case. Whether or not the laws of war applied, there is prosecution for war crimes (once we return to rational cost reduction and equal due process).
- tguvot 3y ago
  https://blogs.icrc.org/ilot/2017/08/14/objects-specially-protected-ihl/ https://blogs.icrc.org/ilot/2017/08/14/objects-specially-pro...

ammo1662 3y ago

It seems to be a JDAM, not a missle. Someone made a video to compare the sound. https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1714359458967466235 https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1714359458967466235