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> Although chess and Go are beautiful games, their reliance on strategy means they suffer from a different sort of problem. Unless players are perfectly matched

by tromp 3y ago

> Although chess and Go are beautiful games, their reliance on strategy means they suffer from a different sort of problem. Unless players are perfectly matched, the outcome can be rather predictable. In the perfect game, you should still be in with a shot of winning even if you’re not as practised as your opponent. An element of uncertainty is required. We decide to play because there is a chance either of us can beat the other. Go doesn't really suffer from that problem since it offers a great handicapping system. The weaker player can take Black and start with placing n > 1 stones on the board as their first move. And an even finer control is available, if for instance Black tends to win 2/3 of the time with 3 handicap, but 1/3 of the time with only 2 handicap. One can adjust the komi (points that White adds to their score at the end of the game to compensate for moving second) by half-integer amounts. Thus you can get very close to each player winning about half the time.

dragontamer 3y ago
Unfortunately, the skill gap in Go is astronomical. At my best, I am a 7kyu player. This means that an absolute beginner (roughly 30kyu) has no chance vs me, even with 9 handicap. You need to be reasonably studied at 16kyu level before 9-handicap is fair vs my peak performance. IMO, 16kyu is achievable in a few months of practice and study, but its not something you'll get just casually. Alas, 7kyu is over 9-stones of handicap away from the top-level 9-dan players. I probably have a shot of beating the #1 player in the world with 9-handicap, but I'm still favored to lose by a decent margin. ---------------- 9-handicap is roughly equivalent to letting the opponent move 9 times before even moving once. Its astronomical, far more than a "Queens" advantage in Chess IMO. Yes, the Go handicap system scales extremely well, probably the best handicap system I've ever seen in my life. But its not quite enough somehow. The depth and complexity to this game is huge.
- tromp 3y ago
  > This means that an absolute beginner (roughly 30kyu) has no chance vs me, even with 9 handicap. A beginner will find games on the smaller 9x9 board MUCH more enjoyable. They will likely have a decent chance vs you at 9 handicap, while reducing the very real risk of feeling lost and getting bored by lengthy play before seeing the result. And you will probably find small board games more enjoyable as well when playing beginners. When they get a little stronger, I would first try the intermediate 13x13 to see if they like it better than 9x9 (there's a chance they prefer sticking to the small board for a while longer). Beyond that, there is no reason to limit handicap to 9 stones, especially with free placement.
  - dragontamer 3y ago
    True, but I should note that 9x9 games balance with Komi better in my experience, rather than stones. Some combination of stones (~4 stones on the 9x9 board), followed up with severe Komi (30+ stones of Komi) is probably better for both players rather than giving the beginner like... 15 stones... on the tiny board. ----------- The 19x19 board is reasonably balanced up to 9 stone handicap, but I think at that point it makes sense to balance with Komi rather than stones to push the handicap further. Not that I've tried this myself, but severe amounts of stones make the game play very differently and are possibly bad for the beginner player's development.

by tromp 3y ago

dragontamer 3y ago

Unfortunately, the skill gap in Go is astronomical. At my best, I am a 7kyu player. This means that an absolute beginner (roughly 30kyu) has no chance vs me, even with 9 handicap. You need to be reasonably studied at 16kyu level before 9-handicap is fair vs my peak performance. IMO, 16kyu is achievable in a few months of practice and study, but its not something you'll get just casually. Alas, 7kyu is over 9-stones of handicap away from the top-level 9-dan players. I probably have a shot of beating the #1 player in the world with 9-handicap, but I'm still favored to lose by a decent margin. ---------------- 9-handicap is roughly equivalent to letting the opponent move 9 times before even moving once. Its astronomical, far more than a "Queens" advantage in Chess IMO. Yes, the Go handicap system scales extremely well, probably the best handicap system I've ever seen in my life. But its not quite enough somehow. The depth and complexity to this game is huge.

tromp 3y ago
> This means that an absolute beginner (roughly 30kyu) has no chance vs me, even with 9 handicap. A beginner will find games on the smaller 9x9 board MUCH more enjoyable. They will likely have a decent chance vs you at 9 handicap, while reducing the very real risk of feeling lost and getting bored by lengthy play before seeing the result. And you will probably find small board games more enjoyable as well when playing beginners. When they get a little stronger, I would first try the intermediate 13x13 to see if they like it better than 9x9 (there's a chance they prefer sticking to the small board for a while longer). Beyond that, there is no reason to limit handicap to 9 stones, especially with free placement.
- dragontamer 3y ago
  True, but I should note that 9x9 games balance with Komi better in my experience, rather than stones. Some combination of stones (~4 stones on the 9x9 board), followed up with severe Komi (30+ stones of Komi) is probably better for both players rather than giving the beginner like... 15 stones... on the tiny board. ----------- The 19x19 board is reasonably balanced up to 9 stone handicap, but I think at that point it makes sense to balance with Komi rather than stones to push the handicap further. Not that I've tried this myself, but severe amounts of stones make the game play very differently and are possibly bad for the beginner player's development.