5 ms·

The problem with San Francisco, Seattle, and Vancouver (BC), and other cities with housing issues is simple, Americans seem to hate apartments, everyone wants h

The problem with San Francisco, Seattle, and Vancouver (BC), and other cities with housing issues is simple, Americans seem to hate apartments, everyone wants houses, so most of the cities are zoned for SFH (Seattle and Vancouver for sure). If you built 10 floor buildings everywhere, with 2/3 bedroom apartments, even at 1 apartment per floor, housing stops being an issue in 5 years. However, go to Seattle, San Francisco and Vancouver, out of their downtowns, houses everywhere. Housing is a solved issue, cities in Asia and Latin America with the same surface area as SF, Seattle and Vancouver fit 3x to 4x more people, but they build up and increase density. All these housing threads are frustrating because of this, just build buildings.

epistasis 3y ago
Polling shows that there's only a slight preference for single family homes. Yet the land usage is absolutely dominated by bans on apartments. If preferences really were so strong for single family homes, there wouldn't have to be a legal ban on other forms of housing. This stranglehold on the housing problem, by a few politicians and a small number of homeowners banning others from living their preferred way of life, is the true cause of the shortage.
- Izikiel43 3y ago
  > Polling shows that there's only a slight preference for single family homes. So, 51% vs 49% ? That's still half of the people wanting houses. I agree that regulations are to blame, and most of the voters vote against housing, because people in the us who vote are mostly the boomers, who are mostly homeowners, hence increasing the value on their home.
  - epistasis 3y ago
    I think it's more like 60% with a stated preference for single family home over a walkability to amenities. But this is stated preference, not the true preference as revealed by having to put money on the line. And markets prove time and time again that opinion polls do not match up with actual behavior. IMHO, I would suspect more people would choose walkability over SFH than the polls suggest, but I could also be wrong and maybe it would swing the other way. In any case, the market is not allowed to meet consumer demand because of the ubiquity of apartment bans in cities. I have a feeling that if we did more voting rather than backroom deals with a veneer of "public input" where the only people who provide input are busybodies, then we would not have apartment bans at 90% of land area in most cities. (I say "busybody" as a busybody myself, I had to start being one to push back against the housing policy that was causing so many of my friends to move away!)
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Americans seem to hate apartments, everyone wants houses Tell that to every apartment building with a waiting list. The fetishization of single-family housing comes from planners, not the populace.
- epistasis 3y ago
  Every time I bring up the built environment with planners, almost all of them say "it's not our fault." They blame politicians, etc. for the results of the planning profession over the past 50-70 years. Perhaps the planners are right, but then my question is, what do planners actually do?
- Izikiel43 3y ago
  > The fetishization of single-family housing comes from planners From what I read, the fetishization comes from already homeowners who want to have their cake (a house) and eat it too (making it an asset that appreciates). Since voting is non mandatory in USA, voters tend to skew old and/or homeowner, both of which like to maintain the status quo, hence favoring policies that keep it.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
Solvency 3y ago
"Housing" might be a "solved issue" in "Asia" but that's absurdly reductionist. Quality of life is not solved. Breathing your neighbors vape and cigarette smoke is not solved. Hearing pounding bass through every adjacent wall is not solved. Lack of your own yard is not solved. There are thousands of human problems that arise in condensed compressed living.
- Izikiel43 3y ago
  And latin america, don't forget that. This comment is literally the point I was trying to make, thank you very much, I couldn't ask for a more typical american answer. If you want to live in a city, and not pay sky high rent, these are going to be some small issues you will have to work with. I say small, because the alternative is not having housing, or paying half of your salary in rent/mortgage. The bass is solved, have the HOA or condo board apply fines for loud noises, which grow exponentially with each infraction. Lack of your own yard? Go to a park, I lived in Vancouver in an apartment, and I had a ton of parks nearby, same in other cities I've lived in. Having a house in a city is luxury, not a need, a home is a need, but that can be an apartment.
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    > thinks HOAs are a good idea
    - Izikiel43 3y ago
      vs being homeless? Greatest idea ever
- screye 3y ago
  No, these totally are solved problems. What apartments are you living in ? Why is your neighbors smoke entering your house ? In my country, everyone cooks highly aromatic food, and even then I can't tell what my neighbors are cooking....let alone smell their vape or cigarettes. Why can you hear pounding bass from our neighbor ? Sound isolation is a solved problem. The thin-walls problem is one I've experienced only after I arrived in the US. Not sure why lack of a yard is a problem at all. What is a yard, except empty green grass ? If it is a communal space to host events, then lots of condo towers have common downstairs areas that can be reserved for free. If it is a garden, then you can easily have patio gardens. Hell, I've seen more gardens in apartments back home (since home cooking is the norm), than I have in yard in the US. If is a backyard, ie. ourdoors private space, then large patios facilitate the exact same outdoors privacy. If it is a playground, then you'll be pleased to know that most apartment complexes in Asia have playgrounds. And guess what? It comes with the community you need to actually form a team to use the playground. It would be one thing if every time I visited the suburbs, if I saw yards being a communal source of activity, happiness and personality that people claim they are. On the contrary, I find that it is miles upon miles on completely empty plots with consistent green grass that has not been stepped on for days. My current apartment in downtown US city has a massive common lounge area and a massive rooftop with a view of the city. We have a large enough patio and I have never heard sounds from my neighbors because it uses bricks rather than dry-wall. (And I live in the THE SPOT for young rich spoiled 20-something). It does everything you get from an SFH, but better. (assuming similar capital investment)

epistasis 3y ago

Polling shows that there's only a slight preference for single family homes. Yet the land usage is absolutely dominated by bans on apartments. If preferences really were so strong for single family homes, there wouldn't have to be a legal ban on other forms of housing. This stranglehold on the housing problem, by a few politicians and a small number of homeowners banning others from living their preferred way of life, is the true cause of the shortage.

Izikiel43 3y ago
> Polling shows that there's only a slight preference for single family homes. So, 51% vs 49% ? That's still half of the people wanting houses. I agree that regulations are to blame, and most of the voters vote against housing, because people in the us who vote are mostly the boomers, who are mostly homeowners, hence increasing the value on their home.
- epistasis 3y ago
  I think it's more like 60% with a stated preference for single family home over a walkability to amenities. But this is stated preference, not the true preference as revealed by having to put money on the line. And markets prove time and time again that opinion polls do not match up with actual behavior. IMHO, I would suspect more people would choose walkability over SFH than the polls suggest, but I could also be wrong and maybe it would swing the other way. In any case, the market is not allowed to meet consumer demand because of the ubiquity of apartment bans in cities. I have a feeling that if we did more voting rather than backroom deals with a veneer of "public input" where the only people who provide input are busybodies, then we would not have apartment bans at 90% of land area in most cities. (I say "busybody" as a busybody myself, I had to start being one to push back against the housing policy that was causing so many of my friends to move away!)

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> Americans seem to hate apartments, everyone wants houses Tell that to every apartment building with a waiting list. The fetishization of single-family housing comes from planners, not the populace.

epistasis 3y ago
Every time I bring up the built environment with planners, almost all of them say "it's not our fault." They blame politicians, etc. for the results of the planning profession over the past 50-70 years. Perhaps the planners are right, but then my question is, what do planners actually do?
Izikiel43 3y ago
> The fetishization of single-family housing comes from planners From what I read, the fetishization comes from already homeowners who want to have their cake (a house) and eat it too (making it an asset that appreciates). Since voting is non mandatory in USA, voters tend to skew old and/or homeowner, both of which like to maintain the status quo, hence favoring policies that keep it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

Solvency 3y ago

"Housing" might be a "solved issue" in "Asia" but that's absurdly reductionist. Quality of life is not solved. Breathing your neighbors vape and cigarette smoke is not solved. Hearing pounding bass through every adjacent wall is not solved. Lack of your own yard is not solved. There are thousands of human problems that arise in condensed compressed living.

Izikiel43 3y ago
And latin america, don't forget that. This comment is literally the point I was trying to make, thank you very much, I couldn't ask for a more typical american answer. If you want to live in a city, and not pay sky high rent, these are going to be some small issues you will have to work with. I say small, because the alternative is not having housing, or paying half of your salary in rent/mortgage. The bass is solved, have the HOA or condo board apply fines for loud noises, which grow exponentially with each infraction. Lack of your own yard? Go to a park, I lived in Vancouver in an apartment, and I had a ton of parks nearby, same in other cities I've lived in. Having a house in a city is luxury, not a need, a home is a need, but that can be an apartment.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  > thinks HOAs are a good idea
  - Izikiel43 3y ago
    vs being homeless? Greatest idea ever
screye 3y ago
No, these totally are solved problems. What apartments are you living in ? Why is your neighbors smoke entering your house ? In my country, everyone cooks highly aromatic food, and even then I can't tell what my neighbors are cooking....let alone smell their vape or cigarettes. Why can you hear pounding bass from our neighbor ? Sound isolation is a solved problem. The thin-walls problem is one I've experienced only after I arrived in the US. Not sure why lack of a yard is a problem at all. What is a yard, except empty green grass ? If it is a communal space to host events, then lots of condo towers have common downstairs areas that can be reserved for free. If it is a garden, then you can easily have patio gardens. Hell, I've seen more gardens in apartments back home (since home cooking is the norm), than I have in yard in the US. If is a backyard, ie. ourdoors private space, then large patios facilitate the exact same outdoors privacy. If it is a playground, then you'll be pleased to know that most apartment complexes in Asia have playgrounds. And guess what? It comes with the community you need to actually form a team to use the playground. It would be one thing if every time I visited the suburbs, if I saw yards being a communal source of activity, happiness and personality that people claim they are. On the contrary, I find that it is miles upon miles on completely empty plots with consistent green grass that has not been stepped on for days. My current apartment in downtown US city has a massive common lounge area and a massive rooftop with a view of the city. We have a large enough patio and I have never heard sounds from my neighbors because it uses bricks rather than dry-wall. (And I live in the THE SPOT for young rich spoiled 20-something). It does everything you get from an SFH, but better. (assuming similar capital investment)