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I agree with you there. I believe I've seen dang comment that downvoting shouldn't be for disagreements, rather for poor quality content, regardless of whether

by SCUSKU 3y ago

I agree with you there. I believe I've seen dang comment that downvoting shouldn't be for disagreements, rather for poor quality content, regardless of whether or not you agree. On Reddit, downvoting is always a matter of personal opinion, and so it took me a while to adjust to the downvoting style HN advocates for. But I'm mostly used to it now and I have to say I enjoy it. It makes me have to think more critically about why I want to downvote something. Many times I have stopped myself from downvoting something solely because I disagreed, not because it was hateful, racist, etc.

AnimalMuppet 3y ago
I took the stance that downvoting for disagreement was not OK on HN. dang replied to me, saying that it was allowed. (Though perhaps not ideal? I don't remember - it's been a while. Also, his stance may have changed since.)
- CamperBob2 3y ago
  The best solution would be for HN to allow users to opt out of the karma system altogether. Your account would still have a karma and your comments would still be scored, but you couldn't see your own karma or comment scores. You could still upvote, perhaps, but not downvote. And you wouldn't have to put up with the asinine, counterproductive contrast-reduction effect, although you would still have the showdead and vouch options. I'd check that box in a heartbeat.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    Add this to stylus (or other per-site CSS modifying extension): @-moz-document domain("news.ycombinator.com") { [title=downvote] { display: none } [title=upvote] { display: none } [id=karma] { display: none } [class=score] { display: none } } That still lets you see that karma exists (and its value) on a user page (including your own). Those trs didn't have class or id info to let me easily hide them. (Obviously, don't include the "hide the upvote element" if you want to still be able to upvote content.)
  - qup 3y ago
    Would you see comments weighted by votes? Is this some kind of emotional response you're having to seeing votes? I don't understand how it would improve the experience.
Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
Technically, Reddiquette [0] dictates that you shouldn't downvote based on opinion either. > Please don't [...] Downvote an otherwise acceptable post because you don't personally like it By trying to argue that is a completely lost cause. Most redditors think the purpose of a downvote is to indicate disagreement. [0] https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-R...
- pixl97 3y ago
  This is why the linear vote system just sucks, but no one seems brave enough to try anything else. No one seems to have the same intent values internally on what the up and down arrows actually mean. I'd love quadrant or orange slice style voting where you have multiple options like "I agree" or "good content" and the converse options, but tiny phone interfaces really tend to limit what people can click on.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    The up/down arrows are too small to hit easily on a tiny phone anyway. There could be a button for "this post made me feel a certain way", and then it would pop up a pie menu to select an options for how it made you feel or your reaction to it, which would work, even on a tiny phone screen.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    This is why the linear vote system just sucks, but no one seems brave enough to try anything else. No one seems to have the same intent values internally on what the up and down arrows actually mean. Slashdot did it better:) I guess https://slashdot.org/faq/metamod.shtml https://slashdot.org/faq/metamod.shtml is a decent link? Basically, instead of just upvote, you get funny/interesting/informative/etc. and instead of just downvote/flag you get offtopic/troll/offtopic/etc.
- glenstein 3y ago
  >By trying to argue that is a completely lost cause. Most redditors think the purpose of a downvote is to indicate disagreement. You are completely right, but I would say it's even worse than this. I believe it has become an established community norm, not only to reflexively downvote, but to treat complaints or concerns about this behavior as poor form which is out of bounds, and which is also downvoted. And so the bad down voting behavior is there, and because it's the mindless mass, and reflexively defense itself when it gets called out, a community norm of enshrining this bad behavior has crystallized.
etrautmann 3y ago
I thought I remember PG saying somewhere that downvotes were intended in part for disagreement? edit for source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171
rcarr 3y ago
I'm no saint, I've definitely been guilty of a "spite downvote" when I've let my anger and frustration get the better of me, especially in my earlier days of commenting, both here and elsewhere. I don't think I've done it in a long time though and hopefully never will again. I did however the other day accuse animal lovers of acting like "fucking militants" and quite rightly got flagged for it. I'm a work in progress and striving to be better and I think that's all you can ask of anyone really. We're all at various stages of development and none of us know what's going on in the life of the people we're talking to. You could be speaking to a teenager with very little life experience who's just ignorant and doesn't really understand the consequences of the position they're arguing for or you could have someone in the 60s who's just lost their spouse and had their whole life come crashing down around them. Downvoting is going to help neither of these people, but leaving a comment might. In the case of the former, what's obvious to you isn't so obvious to them, so you can help enlighten. In the case of the latter, sometimes if you can say the right thing or ask the right question it can help them right themselves. It doesn't even have to be that extreme, I've had plenty of debates on here that end up arriving at a point of mutual agreement which is always nice and often leads to growth on both sides.
dredmorbius 3y ago
I believe I've seen dang comment that downvoting shouldn't be for disagreements ... dang explicitly refutes this: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15310088 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15310088> Downvoting content that runs afoul of HN guidelines and/or drags discussions in uninteresting directions is functioning as intended: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22891768 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22891768> (Searching Algolia with "by:dang <terms>" (in comments) is a useful way to check for moderator views on a particular topic or question.) "by:dang downvote disagree" <https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20downvote%20disagree&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...>
deleted 3y ago
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by SCUSKU 3y ago

AnimalMuppet 3y ago

I took the stance that downvoting for disagreement was not OK on HN. dang replied to me, saying that it was allowed. (Though perhaps not ideal? I don't remember - it's been a while. Also, his stance may have changed since.)

CamperBob2 3y ago
The best solution would be for HN to allow users to opt out of the karma system altogether. Your account would still have a karma and your comments would still be scored, but you couldn't see your own karma or comment scores. You could still upvote, perhaps, but not downvote. And you wouldn't have to put up with the asinine, counterproductive contrast-reduction effect, although you would still have the showdead and vouch options. I'd check that box in a heartbeat.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  Add this to stylus (or other per-site CSS modifying extension): @-moz-document domain("news.ycombinator.com") { [title=downvote] { display: none } [title=upvote] { display: none } [id=karma] { display: none } [class=score] { display: none } } That still lets you see that karma exists (and its value) on a user page (including your own). Those trs didn't have class or id info to let me easily hide them. (Obviously, don't include the "hide the upvote element" if you want to still be able to upvote content.)
- qup 3y ago
  Would you see comments weighted by votes? Is this some kind of emotional response you're having to seeing votes? I don't understand how it would improve the experience.

Sohcahtoa82 3y ago

Technically, Reddiquette [0] dictates that you shouldn't downvote based on opinion either. > Please don't [...] Downvote an otherwise acceptable post because you don't personally like it By trying to argue that is a completely lost cause. Most redditors think the purpose of a downvote is to indicate disagreement. [0] https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-R...

pixl97 3y ago
This is why the linear vote system just sucks, but no one seems brave enough to try anything else. No one seems to have the same intent values internally on what the up and down arrows actually mean. I'd love quadrant or orange slice style voting where you have multiple options like "I agree" or "good content" and the converse options, but tiny phone interfaces really tend to limit what people can click on.
- fragmede 3y ago
  The up/down arrows are too small to hit easily on a tiny phone anyway. There could be a button for "this post made me feel a certain way", and then it would pop up a pie menu to select an options for how it made you feel or your reaction to it, which would work, even on a tiny phone screen.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  This is why the linear vote system just sucks, but no one seems brave enough to try anything else. No one seems to have the same intent values internally on what the up and down arrows actually mean. Slashdot did it better:) I guess https://slashdot.org/faq/metamod.shtml https://slashdot.org/faq/metamod.shtml is a decent link? Basically, instead of just upvote, you get funny/interesting/informative/etc. and instead of just downvote/flag you get offtopic/troll/offtopic/etc.
glenstein 3y ago
>By trying to argue that is a completely lost cause. Most redditors think the purpose of a downvote is to indicate disagreement. You are completely right, but I would say it's even worse than this. I believe it has become an established community norm, not only to reflexively downvote, but to treat complaints or concerns about this behavior as poor form which is out of bounds, and which is also downvoted. And so the bad down voting behavior is there, and because it's the mindless mass, and reflexively defense itself when it gets called out, a community norm of enshrining this bad behavior has crystallized.

etrautmann 3y ago

I thought I remember PG saying somewhere that downvotes were intended in part for disagreement? edit for source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171

rcarr 3y ago

I'm no saint, I've definitely been guilty of a "spite downvote" when I've let my anger and frustration get the better of me, especially in my earlier days of commenting, both here and elsewhere. I don't think I've done it in a long time though and hopefully never will again. I did however the other day accuse animal lovers of acting like "fucking militants" and quite rightly got flagged for it. I'm a work in progress and striving to be better and I think that's all you can ask of anyone really. We're all at various stages of development and none of us know what's going on in the life of the people we're talking to. You could be speaking to a teenager with very little life experience who's just ignorant and doesn't really understand the consequences of the position they're arguing for or you could have someone in the 60s who's just lost their spouse and had their whole life come crashing down around them. Downvoting is going to help neither of these people, but leaving a comment might. In the case of the former, what's obvious to you isn't so obvious to them, so you can help enlighten. In the case of the latter, sometimes if you can say the right thing or ask the right question it can help them right themselves. It doesn't even have to be that extreme, I've had plenty of debates on here that end up arriving at a point of mutual agreement which is always nice and often leads to growth on both sides.

dredmorbius 3y ago

I believe I've seen dang comment that downvoting shouldn't be for disagreements ... dang explicitly refutes this: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15310088 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15310088> Downvoting content that runs afoul of HN guidelines and/or drags discussions in uninteresting directions is functioning as intended: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22891768 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22891768> (Searching Algolia with "by:dang <terms>" (in comments) is a useful way to check for moderator views on a particular topic or question.) "by:dang downvote disagree" <https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20downvote%20disagree&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...>

deleted 3y ago

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