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I really appreciate this comment because it gets to the root of my unease with unions in the US. It's good for society, the individual, and the employer when pe

I really appreciate this comment because it gets to the root of my unease with unions in the US. It's good for society, the individual, and the employer when people have room to grow/work harder/contribute more and be rewarded for it. When I hear pro-union talk around me, it does come packaged with "working any harder than the minimum is evil" vibe that I find disruptive on whatever level it is accepted. IE - if you accept "work the least possible" as an individual, you yourself will do poorly. If the organization is forced to accept it, it will decline against other domestic competitors. If the country is forced to accept it, it will decline against international competitors.

tokai 3y ago
My union representative is currently working with my boss to get rid of an employee that isn't pulling their weight. It is harming both the company and colleagues when someone doesn't fulfill their duties. In the Nordic countries it is quite easy to get rid of workers, as the welfare state is supposed care for people til they find other work. It makes for a quite flexible labor market.
- bombcar 3y ago
  This is the missing link that I've rarely if ever seen in the USA - the Union needs to "police itself" so that they are guaranteeing a certain "value of labor". In the US the biggest group complaining about lazy union employees are the other union employees.
- Shaanie 3y ago
  >In the Nordic countries it is quite easy to get rid of workers What, where? In Sweden it's definitely not easy to get rid of workers. If you're doing layoffs rather than firing an individual you can't even pick and choose who to fire, you need to follow LIFO. You're allowed to have a "trial period" for new employees though, during which it's easy to fire them.
- birksherty 3y ago
  "According to the Economic Policy Institute, wage theft costs U.S. workers as much as $50 billion per year — a number far higher than all robberies, burglaries and motor vehicle thefts combined" Privileged Americans will do anything to steal labour and instead make the hard working people seem like the criminal. But the managers who steal money are completely safe and never accused by the privileged. Only one of the reasons why unions are essential in US.
  - AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
    [dead]
- myaccountonhn 3y ago
  Depends on the field, in institutions it can be extremely hard to get fired.
omscs99 3y ago
> It's good for society, the individual, and the employer when people have room to grow/work harder/contribute more and be rewarded for it. Rewards are distributed based off of seniority. If you do more than what’s “expected”, there’s no guarantee it will lead to promotion. It’s more likely that you’ll just be given more work I agree with you when you say that hard work is good for people, but doing this for your employer (as opposed to for FOSS or personal learning) will just screw you over in the long run
- xyzelement 3y ago
  There's no "guarantee" but there's an increased probability, coupled with a good employee's ability to move to an employer that values someone like them. In the union mindset, there's no chance to do better - it's all been traded away for the chance to do "no worse than" which by definition benefits the less good/productive and hurts the best people.
  - omscs99 3y ago
    > There's no "guarantee" but there's an increased probability This is part of the problem. If you work hard but don’t benefit, you’ve essentially fucked yourself because then you’ll get assigned more, you’ll be stuck carrying a bunch of people. Even if you factor in comp increases, how do you know there’s a net benefit to working hard? (specifically for your employer, on your own time is a different story) It isn’t blind “probability”, it essentially turns into this little psychological game where management dangles promotions in front of people to manipulate them into doing more than is needed > coupled with a good employee's ability to move to an employer that values someone like them. Hasn’t aged well in the current job market
    - xyzelement 3y ago
      // then you’ll get assigned more, you’ll be stuck carrying a bunch of people. Ok so on a personal level, if this happened to me, my sequence of response would be (1) talk to my management to fix the situation (2) failing that, look for another place to work (3) failing that, dial down my level of engagement. Right now, #3 is the worst case. With a union, #3 is the default case since the system is designed to prevent you from being rewarded.

tokai 3y ago

My union representative is currently working with my boss to get rid of an employee that isn't pulling their weight. It is harming both the company and colleagues when someone doesn't fulfill their duties. In the Nordic countries it is quite easy to get rid of workers, as the welfare state is supposed care for people til they find other work. It makes for a quite flexible labor market.

bombcar 3y ago
This is the missing link that I've rarely if ever seen in the USA - the Union needs to "police itself" so that they are guaranteeing a certain "value of labor". In the US the biggest group complaining about lazy union employees are the other union employees.
Shaanie 3y ago
>In the Nordic countries it is quite easy to get rid of workers What, where? In Sweden it's definitely not easy to get rid of workers. If you're doing layoffs rather than firing an individual you can't even pick and choose who to fire, you need to follow LIFO. You're allowed to have a "trial period" for new employees though, during which it's easy to fire them.
birksherty 3y ago
"According to the Economic Policy Institute, wage theft costs U.S. workers as much as $50 billion per year — a number far higher than all robberies, burglaries and motor vehicle thefts combined" Privileged Americans will do anything to steal labour and instead make the hard working people seem like the criminal. But the managers who steal money are completely safe and never accused by the privileged. Only one of the reasons why unions are essential in US.
- AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
  [dead]
myaccountonhn 3y ago
Depends on the field, in institutions it can be extremely hard to get fired.

omscs99 3y ago

> It's good for society, the individual, and the employer when people have room to grow/work harder/contribute more and be rewarded for it. Rewards are distributed based off of seniority. If you do more than what’s “expected”, there’s no guarantee it will lead to promotion. It’s more likely that you’ll just be given more work I agree with you when you say that hard work is good for people, but doing this for your employer (as opposed to for FOSS or personal learning) will just screw you over in the long run

xyzelement 3y ago
There's no "guarantee" but there's an increased probability, coupled with a good employee's ability to move to an employer that values someone like them. In the union mindset, there's no chance to do better - it's all been traded away for the chance to do "no worse than" which by definition benefits the less good/productive and hurts the best people.
- omscs99 3y ago
  > There's no "guarantee" but there's an increased probability This is part of the problem. If you work hard but don’t benefit, you’ve essentially fucked yourself because then you’ll get assigned more, you’ll be stuck carrying a bunch of people. Even if you factor in comp increases, how do you know there’s a net benefit to working hard? (specifically for your employer, on your own time is a different story) It isn’t blind “probability”, it essentially turns into this little psychological game where management dangles promotions in front of people to manipulate them into doing more than is needed > coupled with a good employee's ability to move to an employer that values someone like them. Hasn’t aged well in the current job market
  - xyzelement 3y ago
    // then you’ll get assigned more, you’ll be stuck carrying a bunch of people. Ok so on a personal level, if this happened to me, my sequence of response would be (1) talk to my management to fix the situation (2) failing that, look for another place to work (3) failing that, dial down my level of engagement. Right now, #3 is the worst case. With a union, #3 is the default case since the system is designed to prevent you from being rewarded.