4 ms·

I am not envisioning any society in particular. Instead, I would ask you a question. It's a little contrived, so bear with me. Imagine a situation that you cou

I am not envisioning any society in particular. Instead, I would ask you a question. It's a little contrived, so bear with me. Imagine a situation that you could plausibly find yourself in where you would feel the need to contact the police. It need not be a 911 call, though those are fine too. Imagine how that would go down... the time of day you contact them. Where you would be when it happened. How you would describe the situation to them. In this scenario, what is it that they do to help? Whatever you think happens in that situation, everything I've read over the decades I've been reading about this lead me to believe that there is nothing they would ever do to help anyone reliably/consistently. If your bike was stolen, well fuck you. Why do you even bother to report that. They will neither recover it, nor ever punish the person who stole it. If your home was burglarized, the same. With your car, they'll take the report at least so you can claim insurance, but they will be surly and do so only begrudgingly because if they fail to take those reports to any great degree, there will be a political shitstorm that eventually catches up with them. Are you in fear of your life? They might show up and shoot you. Your dog's in even more danger. Did you see one on the street and ask for directions because you were lost? In Baltimore, that can cause them to point guns at you, scream obscenities, and run you off (and this is considered by some to be a particularly fortunate outcome). The least risky encounter for most of us, is when we're being ticketed, when they're just doing revenue collection. From what I can tell, the outcomes I describe aren't atypical. They've always got more important things to investigate (big drug busts), so the crimes that you and I care about are ignored, and they don't seem to act as a deterrent in any meaningful way. You just have several social filters on your brain that allow you to maintain the illusion otherwise.

bombcar 3y ago
If that's all they do, who is arresting the murders?
- stronglikedan 3y ago
  Detectives, or tactical teams at the direction of detectives. Street cops are as bad as the parent describes in most areas.
  - yterdy 3y ago
    And, for the record, this embodies what most people meant when they said, "Defund the police." Not, "Get rid of the institution of law enforcement." Instead, "Lower funding so that the remainder is forced to be put towards necessary tasks which the police are actually effective at," reducing their ability to engage in the kind of paid apathy or harassment the GGP describes, and freeing up funding for preventative social programs. If you believed it was the former, well, you are not immune to propaganda. And no one in their right mind, even on the ACAB side, wants police to go away entirely. You don't delete a containment board.
    - gotoeleven 3y ago
      If "defund the police" actually means "reform the police" then why not just say reform the police? And also why burn down police stations? I think most people who want to "defund the police" plan to live in a place where the police haven't actually been defunded. "Defund the police" is a luxury belief.
      - yterdy 3y ago
        Because people have been saying, "Reform the police," for decades, and what generally happens when a "reform the police" candidate gets in office is that the police get more money for "training." So, it's not an unconsidered slogan: the problem with "reform" was that it was resulting in wealthier law enforcement that was still corrupt. Time to be more explicit about what needs to happen: do not "reform." Defund.
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
      You can't lower the funding. 1. They self-fund. All confiscated cash is for keeps. If they're not allowed to keep it by state law, they're welcome to call in feds who will do the bust and give them 80% as a finders fee. 2. They extort cities into not "defunding". They don't want it, and they play hardball. > nd no one in their right mind, even on the ACAB side, wants police to go away entirely. No one's ever accused me of being in my right mind, but I am asking quite seriously... what would happen if they did? I have reason to believe "not much, good or bad". In the places where things are horrible, they'd remain horrible. When SF has no retail stores because they can't handle the shoplifting, that'd remain true. And in the suburbs where things are boring, things would stay boring. If your car is stolen, you'd still never get it back. If your bike was stolen, same. If your home was broken into, no one would be caught. And if you were murdered, your murder would go unsolved just like before. And I don't know how anyone can not see that.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  Nobody. America's homicide clearance rate is a coin flip
claar 3y ago
May I assume you don't live in the US midwest Bible belt? A friendly officer drove 10 minutes to pull out a slim jim and unlock my car for me. I thanked him. Normal stuff. A lady's car broke down in an intersection. A police car put their lights on to keep us safe while 3 or 4 random people pushed the car to safety. I often call dispatch to report accidents, debris on the road, or anything else that would warrant police help. I have friends who have been tied up in the legal system with drugs and similar crimes around here. When they sober up, they admit that the cops have a hard job and treated them respectfully. They protect. They serve.. it's honestly very simple. Not all police are lazy/corrupt/ego-driven maniacs. Not around here anyway.
- femiagbabiaka 3y ago
  Are your local police people who live in the community? That helps in my experience.
  - AtlasBarfed 3y ago
    Minneapolis Police Department is like 75% suburbs resident (that is, they don't live in the city). They also are "dropouts" or didn't make the bar of getting in the suburban police departments (cushier jobs, more integrity needed), so they are shit cops that go into Minneapolis, fuck up their jobs in the best case, and drive home to the suburbs. Minneapolis is a very "young" city. It's only now getting actual generations of people that lived and grew up in the city, it used to be a city where all the suburbs people moved into the city. The first run "suburbs" are still actually suburbs, so you drive about five miles and you are in a suburb, while if you're in downtown Chicago, you have to go like 30 miles before you run into suburbs-like existence.
- Clubber 3y ago
  It depends on the police department. >They protect. They serve.. it's honestly very simple. Not all police are lazy/corrupt/ego-driven maniacs. Not around here anyway. They are not, but departments are unwilling to get rid of the bad ones most of the time.
- yterdy 3y ago
quacked 3y ago
The police have shown up to mediate between my sister's abusive boyfriend and my parents, arrested him for beating her and put him in jail, investigated and caught murderers that killed in my parents' neighborhood, etc. If I had been the one to call the police in any of those situations, I would expect that they did what they did, which was show up and provide a threatening presence to decrease the risk of further uncontrolled violence. I don't mean to phrase this as an emotionally hostile reaction to your idea. Sometimes people hide their reasons for thinking something and then bring them out after drawing the person they're arguing with out into the open. That's not what I'm trying to do. I'm merely pointing out that sometimes I need a situation to be dealt with by violent people with resources, and that's what they do. I agree with you that they won't help with break-ins or with bicycle theft. But I would like them to be able to, because I don't like break-ins or bicycle theft and I'd like the people who to that to be put in "societal time out". This would require an agent permitted to detain someone with violence to investigate and catch people committing bicycle theft and break-ins.

bombcar 3y ago

If that's all they do, who is arresting the murders?

stronglikedan 3y ago
Detectives, or tactical teams at the direction of detectives. Street cops are as bad as the parent describes in most areas.
- yterdy 3y ago
  And, for the record, this embodies what most people meant when they said, "Defund the police." Not, "Get rid of the institution of law enforcement." Instead, "Lower funding so that the remainder is forced to be put towards necessary tasks which the police are actually effective at," reducing their ability to engage in the kind of paid apathy or harassment the GGP describes, and freeing up funding for preventative social programs. If you believed it was the former, well, you are not immune to propaganda. And no one in their right mind, even on the ACAB side, wants police to go away entirely. You don't delete a containment board.
  - gotoeleven 3y ago
    If "defund the police" actually means "reform the police" then why not just say reform the police? And also why burn down police stations? I think most people who want to "defund the police" plan to live in a place where the police haven't actually been defunded. "Defund the police" is a luxury belief.
    - yterdy 3y ago
      Because people have been saying, "Reform the police," for decades, and what generally happens when a "reform the police" candidate gets in office is that the police get more money for "training." So, it's not an unconsidered slogan: the problem with "reform" was that it was resulting in wealthier law enforcement that was still corrupt. Time to be more explicit about what needs to happen: do not "reform." Defund.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
    You can't lower the funding. 1. They self-fund. All confiscated cash is for keeps. If they're not allowed to keep it by state law, they're welcome to call in feds who will do the bust and give them 80% as a finders fee. 2. They extort cities into not "defunding". They don't want it, and they play hardball. > nd no one in their right mind, even on the ACAB side, wants police to go away entirely. No one's ever accused me of being in my right mind, but I am asking quite seriously... what would happen if they did? I have reason to believe "not much, good or bad". In the places where things are horrible, they'd remain horrible. When SF has no retail stores because they can't handle the shoplifting, that'd remain true. And in the suburbs where things are boring, things would stay boring. If your car is stolen, you'd still never get it back. If your bike was stolen, same. If your home was broken into, no one would be caught. And if you were murdered, your murder would go unsolved just like before. And I don't know how anyone can not see that.
mrguyorama 3y ago
Nobody. America's homicide clearance rate is a coin flip

claar 3y ago

May I assume you don't live in the US midwest Bible belt? A friendly officer drove 10 minutes to pull out a slim jim and unlock my car for me. I thanked him. Normal stuff. A lady's car broke down in an intersection. A police car put their lights on to keep us safe while 3 or 4 random people pushed the car to safety. I often call dispatch to report accidents, debris on the road, or anything else that would warrant police help. I have friends who have been tied up in the legal system with drugs and similar crimes around here. When they sober up, they admit that the cops have a hard job and treated them respectfully. They protect. They serve.. it's honestly very simple. Not all police are lazy/corrupt/ego-driven maniacs. Not around here anyway.

femiagbabiaka 3y ago
Are your local police people who live in the community? That helps in my experience.
- AtlasBarfed 3y ago
  Minneapolis Police Department is like 75% suburbs resident (that is, they don't live in the city). They also are "dropouts" or didn't make the bar of getting in the suburban police departments (cushier jobs, more integrity needed), so they are shit cops that go into Minneapolis, fuck up their jobs in the best case, and drive home to the suburbs. Minneapolis is a very "young" city. It's only now getting actual generations of people that lived and grew up in the city, it used to be a city where all the suburbs people moved into the city. The first run "suburbs" are still actually suburbs, so you drive about five miles and you are in a suburb, while if you're in downtown Chicago, you have to go like 30 miles before you run into suburbs-like existence.
Clubber 3y ago
It depends on the police department. >They protect. They serve.. it's honestly very simple. Not all police are lazy/corrupt/ego-driven maniacs. Not around here anyway. They are not, but departments are unwilling to get rid of the bad ones most of the time.
yterdy 3y ago

quacked 3y ago

The police have shown up to mediate between my sister's abusive boyfriend and my parents, arrested him for beating her and put him in jail, investigated and caught murderers that killed in my parents' neighborhood, etc. If I had been the one to call the police in any of those situations, I would expect that they did what they did, which was show up and provide a threatening presence to decrease the risk of further uncontrolled violence. I don't mean to phrase this as an emotionally hostile reaction to your idea. Sometimes people hide their reasons for thinking something and then bring them out after drawing the person they're arguing with out into the open. That's not what I'm trying to do. I'm merely pointing out that sometimes I need a situation to be dealt with by violent people with resources, and that's what they do. I agree with you that they won't help with break-ins or with bicycle theft. But I would like them to be able to, because I don't like break-ins or bicycle theft and I'd like the people who to that to be put in "societal time out". This would require an agent permitted to detain someone with violence to investigate and catch people committing bicycle theft and break-ins.