26 ms·

I'm surprised that you describe mob rule as something good. Would you like someone to park a bunch of big trucks in front of place because they won't pay you p

I'm surprised that you describe mob rule as something good. Would you like someone to park a bunch of big trucks in front of place because they won't pay you protection money? It's extortion and should not be held as some ideal. If you want to protest to let customers know something that's fine - the minute you harass or stop customers/business you've crossed the line.

FartyMcFarter 3y ago
I think the post you're replying to didn't say it's good or bad, they merely reported some facts about unions in Sweden (not sure they're if accurate or not, but I have no specific reason to doubt them).
robertlagrant 3y ago
Unions are mob rule in that sense. If you want to work and the union doesn't want you to, you obey your union boss. Wherever you put power, it will sometimes be abused, even if it's worth it overall for you.
- dagw 3y ago
  In Sweden there is no requirement to be in a union to work at a company with union agreement. A company cannot require (or forbid) union membership of employees. Also a union cannot require that you are member to be covered by their collective bargaining agreement.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    How are the unions funded? In the US it's a slice of the member's pay which means that even if you aren't in the union you still pay that - if the union instead negotiated its payment direct from the company I think a lot of anti-union complaints would go away.
    - Hikikomori 3y ago
      If you join there's a monthly fee. You can pay a little extra and get additional unemployment payments if you get laid off.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      Why would you still pay it even if you aren't in the union, if it's a slice of members' pay?
      - bombcar 3y ago
        Because that's the agreement many of the unions have with the company - in a "union shop" you have to pay dues, even if you're not a member of the union. So of course everyone joins the union.
tokai 3y ago
Well this mob rule has ensured some of the best working conditions in the world for the Nordic countries. While having very flexible industries, with less labor conflicts than most countries. Why is it okay for an individual to get what is theirs, but not a collective?
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  Having $200k federal savings per person due to oil extraction also helps.
  - mrmanner 3y ago
    That’s Norway, don’t involve the rest of us
kanbara 3y ago
classic HN. business can do whatever it wants with impunity but god forbid people actually have any equal power. did you know the nordic countries are among the happiest and have some of the strongest social benefits in the world while still being wealthy?
- stri8ted 3y ago
  > did you know the nordic countries are among the happiest and have some of the strongest social benefits in the world while still being wealthy? I do wonder how much of this is due to cultural homogeneity and the benefits that follow. Will this remain the case in the presence of a larger proportion of immigrants? I don't think its a fair comparison, when people contrast Nordic countries with the US. Many studies have found that social trust is higher and easier to maintain in homogeneous societies.
  - Darmody 3y ago
    You're wrong about the immigration part. They now have to use the army to fight the gangs in Sweden. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66964723 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66964723
    - pb7 3y ago
      Exactly. As soon as immigration increased, crime and disorder increased. It's easy to maintain utopia when everyone looks and behaves exactly like you.
ben_w 3y ago
The difference between this being done legitimately and illegitimately is not one I can put into words[0], but I would note that there are ways this can be legitimate in any society — the police, in a democracy (sometimes described as fancy mob rule), where the protection money is normally called "taxes" — and that quite a lot of countries are stopping people from doing business with Russia right now as part of a protest against what they're doing in Ukraine. Unions have whatever powers they've been allowed to have by the country they operate in, just as do corporations and police forces. [0] Where you put the line between balancing the powers of unions vs. corporations is one of the major political dividing lines for the last 175 years, I'm not going to do it justice.
mrmanner 3y ago
The alternative to this “mob rule” is government mandated minimum wage. And, ehm, I mean, have you seen what the government will do to get their way? They stop businesses and harass people, and then some.

FartyMcFarter 3y ago

I think the post you're replying to didn't say it's good or bad, they merely reported some facts about unions in Sweden (not sure they're if accurate or not, but I have no specific reason to doubt them).

robertlagrant 3y ago

Unions are mob rule in that sense. If you want to work and the union doesn't want you to, you obey your union boss. Wherever you put power, it will sometimes be abused, even if it's worth it overall for you.

dagw 3y ago
In Sweden there is no requirement to be in a union to work at a company with union agreement. A company cannot require (or forbid) union membership of employees. Also a union cannot require that you are member to be covered by their collective bargaining agreement.
- bombcar 3y ago
  How are the unions funded? In the US it's a slice of the member's pay which means that even if you aren't in the union you still pay that - if the union instead negotiated its payment direct from the company I think a lot of anti-union complaints would go away.
  - Hikikomori 3y ago
    If you join there's a monthly fee. You can pay a little extra and get additional unemployment payments if you get laid off.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    Why would you still pay it even if you aren't in the union, if it's a slice of members' pay?
    - bombcar 3y ago
      Because that's the agreement many of the unions have with the company - in a "union shop" you have to pay dues, even if you're not a member of the union. So of course everyone joins the union.

tokai 3y ago

Well this mob rule has ensured some of the best working conditions in the world for the Nordic countries. While having very flexible industries, with less labor conflicts than most countries. Why is it okay for an individual to get what is theirs, but not a collective?

mensetmanusman 3y ago
Having $200k federal savings per person due to oil extraction also helps.
- mrmanner 3y ago
  That’s Norway, don’t involve the rest of us

kanbara 3y ago

classic HN. business can do whatever it wants with impunity but god forbid people actually have any equal power. did you know the nordic countries are among the happiest and have some of the strongest social benefits in the world while still being wealthy?

stri8ted 3y ago
> did you know the nordic countries are among the happiest and have some of the strongest social benefits in the world while still being wealthy? I do wonder how much of this is due to cultural homogeneity and the benefits that follow. Will this remain the case in the presence of a larger proportion of immigrants? I don't think its a fair comparison, when people contrast Nordic countries with the US. Many studies have found that social trust is higher and easier to maintain in homogeneous societies.
- Darmody 3y ago
  You're wrong about the immigration part. They now have to use the army to fight the gangs in Sweden. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66964723 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66964723
  - pb7 3y ago
    Exactly. As soon as immigration increased, crime and disorder increased. It's easy to maintain utopia when everyone looks and behaves exactly like you.

ben_w 3y ago

The difference between this being done legitimately and illegitimately is not one I can put into words[0], but I would note that there are ways this can be legitimate in any society — the police, in a democracy (sometimes described as fancy mob rule), where the protection money is normally called "taxes" — and that quite a lot of countries are stopping people from doing business with Russia right now as part of a protest against what they're doing in Ukraine. Unions have whatever powers they've been allowed to have by the country they operate in, just as do corporations and police forces. [0] Where you put the line between balancing the powers of unions vs. corporations is one of the major political dividing lines for the last 175 years, I'm not going to do it justice.

mrmanner 3y ago

The alternative to this “mob rule” is government mandated minimum wage. And, ehm, I mean, have you seen what the government will do to get their way? They stop businesses and harass people, and then some.