6 ms·

What kind of society are you envisioning that can address antisocial behavior without detaining or investigating anyone?

Zigurd 3y ago
Modern policing in the US is pretty terrible in terms of systemic corruption. If you add up the costs of, for example, overtime and detail fraud, it puts normal property crime in the shade.
NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
I am not envisioning any society in particular. Instead, I would ask you a question. It's a little contrived, so bear with me. Imagine a situation that you could plausibly find yourself in where you would feel the need to contact the police. It need not be a 911 call, though those are fine too. Imagine how that would go down... the time of day you contact them. Where you would be when it happened. How you would describe the situation to them. In this scenario, what is it that they do to help? Whatever you think happens in that situation, everything I've read over the decades I've been reading about this lead me to believe that there is nothing they would ever do to help anyone reliably/consistently. If your bike was stolen, well fuck you. Why do you even bother to report that. They will neither recover it, nor ever punish the person who stole it. If your home was burglarized, the same. With your car, they'll take the report at least so you can claim insurance, but they will be surly and do so only begrudgingly because if they fail to take those reports to any great degree, there will be a political shitstorm that eventually catches up with them. Are you in fear of your life? They might show up and shoot you. Your dog's in even more danger. Did you see one on the street and ask for directions because you were lost? In Baltimore, that can cause them to point guns at you, scream obscenities, and run you off (and this is considered by some to be a particularly fortunate outcome). The least risky encounter for most of us, is when we're being ticketed, when they're just doing revenue collection. From what I can tell, the outcomes I describe aren't atypical. They've always got more important things to investigate (big drug busts), so the crimes that you and I care about are ignored, and they don't seem to act as a deterrent in any meaningful way. You just have several social filters on your brain that allow you to maintain the illusion otherwise.
- bombcar 3y ago
  If that's all they do, who is arresting the murders?
  - stronglikedan 3y ago
    Detectives, or tactical teams at the direction of detectives. Street cops are as bad as the parent describes in most areas.
    - yterdy 3y ago
      And, for the record, this embodies what most people meant when they said, "Defund the police." Not, "Get rid of the institution of law enforcement." Instead, "Lower funding so that the remainder is forced to be put towards necessary tasks which the police are actually effective at," reducing their ability to engage in the kind of paid apathy or harassment the GGP describes, and freeing up funding for preventative social programs. If you believed it was the former, well, you are not immune to propaganda. And no one in their right mind, even on the ACAB side, wants police to go away entirely. You don't delete a containment board.
      - gotoeleven 3y ago
        If "defund the police" actually means "reform the police" then why not just say reform the police? And also why burn down police stations? I think most people who want to "defund the police" plan to live in a place where the police haven't actually been defunded. "Defund the police" is a luxury belief.
        yterdy 3y ago
        Because people have been saying, "Reform the police," for decades, and what generally happens when a "reform the police" candidate gets in office is that the police get more money for "training." So, it's not an unconsidered slogan: the problem with "reform" was that it was resulting in wealthier law enforcement that was still corrupt. Time to be more explicit about what needs to happen: do not "reform." Defund.

Zigurd 3y ago

Modern policing in the US is pretty terrible in terms of systemic corruption. If you add up the costs of, for example, overtime and detail fraud, it puts normal property crime in the shade.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago

I am not envisioning any society in particular. Instead, I would ask you a question. It's a little contrived, so bear with me. Imagine a situation that you could plausibly find yourself in where you would feel the need to contact the police. It need not be a 911 call, though those are fine too. Imagine how that would go down... the time of day you contact them. Where you would be when it happened. How you would describe the situation to them. In this scenario, what is it that they do to help? Whatever you think happens in that situation, everything I've read over the decades I've been reading about this lead me to believe that there is nothing they would ever do to help anyone reliably/consistently. If your bike was stolen, well fuck you. Why do you even bother to report that. They will neither recover it, nor ever punish the person who stole it. If your home was burglarized, the same. With your car, they'll take the report at least so you can claim insurance, but they will be surly and do so only begrudgingly because if they fail to take those reports to any great degree, there will be a political shitstorm that eventually catches up with them. Are you in fear of your life? They might show up and shoot you. Your dog's in even more danger. Did you see one on the street and ask for directions because you were lost? In Baltimore, that can cause them to point guns at you, scream obscenities, and run you off (and this is considered by some to be a particularly fortunate outcome). The least risky encounter for most of us, is when we're being ticketed, when they're just doing revenue collection. From what I can tell, the outcomes I describe aren't atypical. They've always got more important things to investigate (big drug busts), so the crimes that you and I care about are ignored, and they don't seem to act as a deterrent in any meaningful way. You just have several social filters on your brain that allow you to maintain the illusion otherwise.

bombcar 3y ago
If that's all they do, who is arresting the murders?
- stronglikedan 3y ago
  Detectives, or tactical teams at the direction of detectives. Street cops are as bad as the parent describes in most areas.
  - yterdy 3y ago
    And, for the record, this embodies what most people meant when they said, "Defund the police." Not, "Get rid of the institution of law enforcement." Instead, "Lower funding so that the remainder is forced to be put towards necessary tasks which the police are actually effective at," reducing their ability to engage in the kind of paid apathy or harassment the GGP describes, and freeing up funding for preventative social programs. If you believed it was the former, well, you are not immune to propaganda. And no one in their right mind, even on the ACAB side, wants police to go away entirely. You don't delete a containment board.
    - gotoeleven 3y ago
      If "defund the police" actually means "reform the police" then why not just say reform the police? And also why burn down police stations? I think most people who want to "defund the police" plan to live in a place where the police haven't actually been defunded. "Defund the police" is a luxury belief.
      - yterdy 3y ago
        Because people have been saying, "Reform the police," for decades, and what generally happens when a "reform the police" candidate gets in office is that the police get more money for "training." So, it's not an unconsidered slogan: the problem with "reform" was that it was resulting in wealthier law enforcement that was still corrupt. Time to be more explicit about what needs to happen: do not "reform." Defund.