5 ms·

So the DOJ press release [1] states that SpaceX was discriminating against asylees and refugees which is in breach of the Immigration and Nationality Act. Not

So the DOJ press release [1] states that SpaceX was discriminating against asylees and refugees which is in breach of the Immigration and Nationality Act. Not sure why you think it is unfair for the US government to be enforcing the law. Especially when these are people who are in the US legally and are more than likely on a pathway to US citizenship. Would anyone here seriously want a situation where tech companies would only hire US citizens and not those on relevant work visas ? This would decimate the whole industry. [1] https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-spacex-discriminating-against-asylees-and-refugees-hiring https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-space...

fastball 3y ago
Can refugees get security clearance? Does Northrop Grumman hire refugees and asylees? Does Lockheed Martin?
- hef19898 3y ago
  Securoty clearance, after getting a visa and work permit? Sure, why not? And not all jobs at those companies require clearance, far from it actually.
  - mlyle 3y ago
    > Securoty clearance, after getting a visa and work permit? Sure, why not? Clearance requires US citizenship. > And not all jobs at those companies require clearance, far from it actually. This is the more important point.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      See, clearance in Europe doesn't require citizenship. It does make it a lot easier so.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > Clearance requires US citizenship "...if a non-U.S. citizen requires access to U.S. classified information and meets the requirements of the 32 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 117.10(k), a Limited Access Authorization (LAA) no higher than the Secret level may be issued." https://www.dcsa.mil/Industrial-Security/International-Programs/Security-Assurances-for-Personnel-Facilities/ https://www.dcsa.mil/Industrial-Security/International-Progr...
      - mlyle 3y ago
        > ... but the LAA is not a national security eligibility. Access to classified will be limited to a specific program or project and will be cancelled upon the completion of the program or project for which it was approved... I mean, I originally thought about lengthening my answer to point out that there are limited ways to allow people of extraordinary necessity to work on classified projects, but I figured it wasn't necessary.
    - lesuorac 3y ago
      > Clearance requires US citizenship. How do you think information is shared amongst NATO? Do they get American citizenship for a day? Not every Clearance do not require US citizenship.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        Not that I want US citizenship, but if that was the case...
      - mlyle 3y ago
        > How do you think information is shared amongst NATO? Do they get American citizenship for a day? For NATO, you carry in security clearance from a member nation.
- mlyle 3y ago
  Not every role at SpaceX requires clearance.
  - colordrops 3y ago
    But every role requires being a US person due to ITAR regulations.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      That's not what ITAR says so.
      - bryanlarsen 3y ago
        All roles at SpaceX are ITAR restricted, including janitors etc. SpaceX could set up physical separation to allow them to hire non-ITAR employees, but they are not required to. ITAR restricted roles are restricted to "US persons". SpaceX confused that terminology with "US citizens", but "US persons" is a broader term than "US citizens".
        hef19898 3y ago
        Why the hell does a janitor need ITAR accreditation (the right term, as one can have ITAR access without any kind of security clearance whatsoever)? And I can assure you, outside the US, even Chinese nationals can have access to ITAR equipment and data. I am no US person neither, and I had in the past. As does every single user of US military gear in nations the US exports to...
        bryanlarsen 3y ago
        Because SpaceX doesn't want their engineers to have to worry about when & where they can talk about work while they're at work.
        hef19898 3y ago
- threeseed 3y ago
  a) DOJ states that asylees/refugees are no different to US citizens with respect to export control laws. b) US government issues security clearances not SpaceX so it is their call whether a candidate is suitable or not. And given that they are filing a lawsuit we can assume this is not an issue. c) The issues raised by the DOJ do not relate specifically to security clearances.
- nativeit 3y ago
  What sort of security clearance is necessary to work at below average wages on a non-union assembly line? Or moderating what little hate speech still warrants attention on Ex-Twitter? Or digging tunnels under Las Vegas? Or installing solar batteries? Or servicing Teslas or charging stations? Or cleaning debris under mandate in the Boca Chica nature preserves bordering SpaceX’s “definitely not a launch pad” launch pad? Or working directly on Falcon rockets for that matter, since they aren’t exactly secret or weaponized?
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > security clearance is necessary to work at below average wages on a non-union assembly line SpaceX employees are very well compensated. > working directly on Falcon rockets for that matter, since they aren’t exactly secret or weaponized There is a long list of adversaries trying to develop technologies that approach SpaceX's. (Every missile program, for starters.)
- HWR_14 3y ago
  You can require security clearance if the job requires it. You cannot forbid refugees and asylees from all jobs preemptively. SpaceX has nothing to do with giving clearances. They just check if they are active (they can pay the government to investigate if someone should be given one) And many workers will not require security clearance.
mechhacker 3y ago
Giving technical details to a foreign citizen is considered an export of ITAR or other restricted information and can get you personally locked in federal prison.
- threeseed 3y ago
  Please read the link I posted. "Moreover, asylees’ and refugees’ permission to live and work in the United States does not expire, and they stand on equal footing with U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents under export control laws"
  - mechhacker 3y ago
    There are pathways for it to happen. But you need a team of specialized lawyers, training for all employees, controls, etc. None of this is free.
- hef19898 3y ago
  ITAR is comolex, and a pain in the ass, sure. But it does not, by any means, make it illegal for non-US citizens to get ITAR equipment or information. Because US citizens outside the US also fall under ITAR restrictions. You over simplified that topic a lot. Edit: Thinking of it, getting ITAR stuff to people and places ourside the US is the point of ITAR.
  - mechhacker 3y ago
    I overly simplify it because I need to consult a lawyer any time I deal with it. I do not want to accidentally "export" anything. You need specialized lawyers to deal with this and be compliant, it's not cheap, and I personally default to not chancing it with prison.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      One of the benefits of a large org, they take care of that. Including any fines for any violations!
adamsb6 3y ago
I found one of SpaceX's job postings from 2019: https://web.archive.org/web/20190513175439/https://boards.greenhouse.io/spacex/jobs/4138793002?gh_jid=4138793002 https://web.archive.org/web/20190513175439/https://boards.gr... The DOJ alleges that they excluded asylees and refugees in their job postings. But this doesn't exclude asylees or refugees. It says applicants have to be citizens, permanent resident, or protected individuals as defined in the law: > To conform to U.S. Government space technology export regulations, including the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) you must be a U.S. citizen, lawful permanent resident of the U.S., protected individual as defined by 8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3), or eligible to obtain the required authorizations from the U.S. Department of State. The referenced law is the one referenced by the DOJ that includes asylees and refugees. This job posting that is for top-secret cleared individuals has the same language: https://web.archive.org/web/20190513175514/https://boards.greenhouse.io/spacex/jobs/4112965002?gh_jid=4112965002 https://web.archive.org/web/20190513175514/https://boards.gr...
- true_religion 3y ago
  I think the DoJ case is deep enough that a trivial search via the way back machine isn’t going to sink it. If not then maybe they really do need money for more competent staff.

fastball 3y ago

Can refugees get security clearance? Does Northrop Grumman hire refugees and asylees? Does Lockheed Martin?

hef19898 3y ago
Securoty clearance, after getting a visa and work permit? Sure, why not? And not all jobs at those companies require clearance, far from it actually.
- mlyle 3y ago
  > Securoty clearance, after getting a visa and work permit? Sure, why not? Clearance requires US citizenship. > And not all jobs at those companies require clearance, far from it actually. This is the more important point.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    See, clearance in Europe doesn't require citizenship. It does make it a lot easier so.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Clearance requires US citizenship "...if a non-U.S. citizen requires access to U.S. classified information and meets the requirements of the 32 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 117.10(k), a Limited Access Authorization (LAA) no higher than the Secret level may be issued." https://www.dcsa.mil/Industrial-Security/International-Programs/Security-Assurances-for-Personnel-Facilities/ https://www.dcsa.mil/Industrial-Security/International-Progr...
    - mlyle 3y ago
      > ... but the LAA is not a national security eligibility. Access to classified will be limited to a specific program or project and will be cancelled upon the completion of the program or project for which it was approved... I mean, I originally thought about lengthening my answer to point out that there are limited ways to allow people of extraordinary necessity to work on classified projects, but I figured it wasn't necessary.
  - lesuorac 3y ago
    > Clearance requires US citizenship. How do you think information is shared amongst NATO? Do they get American citizenship for a day? Not every Clearance do not require US citizenship.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Not that I want US citizenship, but if that was the case...
    - mlyle 3y ago
      > How do you think information is shared amongst NATO? Do they get American citizenship for a day? For NATO, you carry in security clearance from a member nation.
mlyle 3y ago
Not every role at SpaceX requires clearance.
- colordrops 3y ago
  But every role requires being a US person due to ITAR regulations.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    That's not what ITAR says so.
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      All roles at SpaceX are ITAR restricted, including janitors etc. SpaceX could set up physical separation to allow them to hire non-ITAR employees, but they are not required to. ITAR restricted roles are restricted to "US persons". SpaceX confused that terminology with "US citizens", but "US persons" is a broader term than "US citizens".
      - hef19898 3y ago
        Why the hell does a janitor need ITAR accreditation (the right term, as one can have ITAR access without any kind of security clearance whatsoever)? And I can assure you, outside the US, even Chinese nationals can have access to ITAR equipment and data. I am no US person neither, and I had in the past. As does every single user of US military gear in nations the US exports to...
        bryanlarsen 3y ago
        Because SpaceX doesn't want their engineers to have to worry about when & where they can talk about work while they're at work.
        hef19898 3y ago
threeseed 3y ago
a) DOJ states that asylees/refugees are no different to US citizens with respect to export control laws. b) US government issues security clearances not SpaceX so it is their call whether a candidate is suitable or not. And given that they are filing a lawsuit we can assume this is not an issue. c) The issues raised by the DOJ do not relate specifically to security clearances.
nativeit 3y ago
What sort of security clearance is necessary to work at below average wages on a non-union assembly line? Or moderating what little hate speech still warrants attention on Ex-Twitter? Or digging tunnels under Las Vegas? Or installing solar batteries? Or servicing Teslas or charging stations? Or cleaning debris under mandate in the Boca Chica nature preserves bordering SpaceX’s “definitely not a launch pad” launch pad? Or working directly on Falcon rockets for that matter, since they aren’t exactly secret or weaponized?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > security clearance is necessary to work at below average wages on a non-union assembly line SpaceX employees are very well compensated. > working directly on Falcon rockets for that matter, since they aren’t exactly secret or weaponized There is a long list of adversaries trying to develop technologies that approach SpaceX's. (Every missile program, for starters.)
HWR_14 3y ago
You can require security clearance if the job requires it. You cannot forbid refugees and asylees from all jobs preemptively. SpaceX has nothing to do with giving clearances. They just check if they are active (they can pay the government to investigate if someone should be given one) And many workers will not require security clearance.

mechhacker 3y ago

Giving technical details to a foreign citizen is considered an export of ITAR or other restricted information and can get you personally locked in federal prison.

threeseed 3y ago
Please read the link I posted. "Moreover, asylees’ and refugees’ permission to live and work in the United States does not expire, and they stand on equal footing with U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents under export control laws"
- mechhacker 3y ago
  There are pathways for it to happen. But you need a team of specialized lawyers, training for all employees, controls, etc. None of this is free.
hef19898 3y ago
ITAR is comolex, and a pain in the ass, sure. But it does not, by any means, make it illegal for non-US citizens to get ITAR equipment or information. Because US citizens outside the US also fall under ITAR restrictions. You over simplified that topic a lot. Edit: Thinking of it, getting ITAR stuff to people and places ourside the US is the point of ITAR.
- mechhacker 3y ago
  I overly simplify it because I need to consult a lawyer any time I deal with it. I do not want to accidentally "export" anything. You need specialized lawyers to deal with this and be compliant, it's not cheap, and I personally default to not chancing it with prison.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    One of the benefits of a large org, they take care of that. Including any fines for any violations!

adamsb6 3y ago

I found one of SpaceX's job postings from 2019: https://web.archive.org/web/20190513175439/https://boards.greenhouse.io/spacex/jobs/4138793002?gh_jid=4138793002 https://web.archive.org/web/20190513175439/https://boards.gr... The DOJ alleges that they excluded asylees and refugees in their job postings. But this doesn't exclude asylees or refugees. It says applicants have to be citizens, permanent resident, or protected individuals as defined in the law: > To conform to U.S. Government space technology export regulations, including the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) you must be a U.S. citizen, lawful permanent resident of the U.S., protected individual as defined by 8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3), or eligible to obtain the required authorizations from the U.S. Department of State. The referenced law is the one referenced by the DOJ that includes asylees and refugees. This job posting that is for top-secret cleared individuals has the same language: https://web.archive.org/web/20190513175514/https://boards.greenhouse.io/spacex/jobs/4112965002?gh_jid=4112965002 https://web.archive.org/web/20190513175514/https://boards.gr...

true_religion 3y ago
I think the DoJ case is deep enough that a trivial search via the way back machine isn’t going to sink it. If not then maybe they really do need money for more competent staff.