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>He has limited time in the day So he spends it dunking on a proposal with snarky prose instead of a concise review without bashing the person trying to contri

>He has limited time in the day So he spends it dunking on a proposal with snarky prose instead of a concise review without bashing the person trying to contribute. How efficient.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
Yeah I mean that's maybe fair, and I thought Torvalds had been making attempts to avoid this kind of tone. I still think even if he had been concise and terse he would have been perceived as slightly-rude though.
- hedora 3y ago
  The proposed summary of the review is too terse and doesn't make any sense. I don't see any redundant prose in the original one. His concerns are clear, and he gives actionable suggestions for improvement. The tone + his opinion of the patch set is also clear. Would you rather get a code review that is full of vague euphemisms and tries not to hurt your feelings, and then spend months wasting time on a dead end approach because you thought minor tweaks would work? I'd much rather get one message that says where the bar for merging is so I could fix my code and get it merged. I absolutely wouldn't care if the latter was a bit sweary. I've worked at a place where all communication must be in professional tone and polite, and you cannot give valid technical feedback that might hurt someone's feelings. The verbal communications standards were weaponized by sycophants, who dominated middle management. It was the most passive-aggressive and hostile work environment (as in legal liability) I've ever encountered.
  - w0z_ 3y ago
    Your reply is pretty much spot on.
- dmvdoug 3y ago
  My impression was he was avoiding outright abusing people. Abusing their ideas as stupid was always going to be on the table for him. (Not justifying it but I think people are fooling themselves if they’re imagining a purely softer, gentler version of him all around.)
djbusby 3y ago
Mark Twain said "I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one". Seems like what's happening here.
- fanf2 3y ago
  Pascal, not Twain https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/04/28/shorter-letter/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/04/28/shorter-letter/
  - djbusby 3y ago
    TIL, thanks! But also,Mark is credited, and where I heard it first.
    - fanf2 3y ago
      Quote Investigator says: > Mark Twain who is often connected to this saying did not use it according to the best available research, but one of his tangentially related quotations is given later for your entertainment. > In 1871 Mark Twain wrote a letter to a friend that included a remark about the length of his note. Twain’s comment did not really match the quotation under investigation but it is related to the general theme:[ref] 1871 June 15, Letter from Mark Twain to James Redpath, Elmira, New York, UCCL 00617 (Union Catalog of Clemens Letters), Mark Twain Project Online. (Accessed marktwainproject.org on 2012 April 24) link[/ref] quoting Twain: >> You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.

>He has limited time in the day So he spends it dunking on a proposal with snarky prose instead of a concise review without bashing the person trying to contribute. How efficient.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago

Yeah I mean that's maybe fair, and I thought Torvalds had been making attempts to avoid this kind of tone. I still think even if he had been concise and terse he would have been perceived as slightly-rude though.

hedora 3y ago
The proposed summary of the review is too terse and doesn't make any sense. I don't see any redundant prose in the original one. His concerns are clear, and he gives actionable suggestions for improvement. The tone + his opinion of the patch set is also clear. Would you rather get a code review that is full of vague euphemisms and tries not to hurt your feelings, and then spend months wasting time on a dead end approach because you thought minor tweaks would work? I'd much rather get one message that says where the bar for merging is so I could fix my code and get it merged. I absolutely wouldn't care if the latter was a bit sweary. I've worked at a place where all communication must be in professional tone and polite, and you cannot give valid technical feedback that might hurt someone's feelings. The verbal communications standards were weaponized by sycophants, who dominated middle management. It was the most passive-aggressive and hostile work environment (as in legal liability) I've ever encountered.
- w0z_ 3y ago
  Your reply is pretty much spot on.
dmvdoug 3y ago
My impression was he was avoiding outright abusing people. Abusing their ideas as stupid was always going to be on the table for him. (Not justifying it but I think people are fooling themselves if they’re imagining a purely softer, gentler version of him all around.)

djbusby 3y ago

Mark Twain said "I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one". Seems like what's happening here.

fanf2 3y ago
Pascal, not Twain https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/04/28/shorter-letter/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/04/28/shorter-letter/
- djbusby 3y ago
  TIL, thanks! But also,Mark is credited, and where I heard it first.
  - fanf2 3y ago
    Quote Investigator says: > Mark Twain who is often connected to this saying did not use it according to the best available research, but one of his tangentially related quotations is given later for your entertainment. > In 1871 Mark Twain wrote a letter to a friend that included a remark about the length of his note. Twain’s comment did not really match the quotation under investigation but it is related to the general theme:[ref] 1871 June 15, Letter from Mark Twain to James Redpath, Elmira, New York, UCCL 00617 (Union Catalog of Clemens Letters), Mark Twain Project Online. (Accessed marktwainproject.org on 2012 April 24) link[/ref] quoting Twain: >> You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.