5 ms·

Are there largely unsolved security issues with paper voting? Why can countries like Germany pull that normally off quite well (other than local ineptitude in B

Are there largely unsolved security issues with paper voting? Why can countries like Germany pull that normally off quite well (other than local ineptitude in Berlin, perhaps)?

viktorcode 3y ago
Yes. Voting under duress, when a voter is forced to vote in a specific way and make a selfie of them with the filled ballot as proof. It’s solved by allowing to cast the vote electronically as many times as you like until election ends. Voter suppression. Voting day can be a workday, ballot box can be in a remote location: those factors together remove day workers who can’t take a day off from voting. Partially amended by mail voting, completely eradicated by electronic voting. And the biggest issue: trust. The less democratic a country is, higher the chance that the electorate commission is dependent on government. There’s no way for a voter in paper based election to check if their ballot was counted in the end. Once again, can be solved with electronic voting.
mariusor 3y ago
You can bet money on the fact that when electronic ballots will have the similar tenure as paper ones, they will be equally secure. I think Schneier, and possibly everyone else, is overlooking one simple thing, nothing needs to be perfect on the first try. Iteration on electronic voting is possible all the way up until you hinge serious stakes on it. A country level organization experimenting with technology to improve the experience of voting and lowering the bar for exercising one's citizenship rights should make us glad, not dismissive. The article series Schneier is basing his critique on is getting this right: > The e-voting system currently being developed by Swiss Post has been significantly improved. However, further developments, some of them substantial, are still required.
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  I am not sure why anyone should switch to something different so that it can eventually be as secure as paper - maybe I misunderstand. What experience needs improving in the paper ballots that needs to go beyond paper? What bar needs to be lowered and is that desirable?
  - mariusor 3y ago
    The main downside of paper ballots is the slowness and contrivance of the process. I think it's a phenomenon that's present in most countries that don't have mandatory voting law to see very low participation, especially with the younger demographic. Having to set aside a whole day to exercise your rights as a citizen is ridiculous in my opinion and we can do a lot better. (Seeing as the article is about Switzerland, I would say their mail ballot initiative is a step in the right direction but to me it also looks less secure than paper ballots). Another one is speed. People in this thread complain that some regions in the US only had their final counts for the last presidential election days, if not weeks after the voting ended. How is that acceptable? In my opinion, when voting is as easy as pushing a button in an application or on a website, the democratic process will have a wider reach and could be used for many more things than the very important ones, like presidential elections or referenda (again the Swiss already do this AFAIK).
    - Tainnor 3y ago
      Swiss people have been able to vote via mail-in vote since forever and there were never any instances of large-scale fraud that I know of. It's true that in-person voting is safer. If you mail in your ballot, nobody can verify that you were truly alone and weren't coerced into giving your vote. And of course, it's not rare for e.g. a child to fill out the ballot for its senior parent etc. But it's still hard to commit large-scale fraud, as you'd need to be in control of the mail delivery.
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      Speed is not a paper thing, it can have results within hours in large countries. Voting with paper also doesn't have to take all day - a few minutes at a polling station or even less by mail ballot (fraud isn't an issue of paper here). Also, voting is more than a right, it is exercising authority and that might perhaps need at least some minimum of hurdle in it to get focus. In terms of broader and more fluid democracy - perhaps, but need to be careful to maintain focus and not end up in something gamified.
      - 3y ago

Are there largely unsolved security issues with paper voting? Why can countries like Germany pull that normally off quite well (other than local ineptitude in Berlin, perhaps)?

viktorcode 3y ago

Yes. Voting under duress, when a voter is forced to vote in a specific way and make a selfie of them with the filled ballot as proof. It’s solved by allowing to cast the vote electronically as many times as you like until election ends. Voter suppression. Voting day can be a workday, ballot box can be in a remote location: those factors together remove day workers who can’t take a day off from voting. Partially amended by mail voting, completely eradicated by electronic voting. And the biggest issue: trust. The less democratic a country is, higher the chance that the electorate commission is dependent on government. There’s no way for a voter in paper based election to check if their ballot was counted in the end. Once again, can be solved with electronic voting.

mariusor 3y ago

You can bet money on the fact that when electronic ballots will have the similar tenure as paper ones, they will be equally secure. I think Schneier, and possibly everyone else, is overlooking one simple thing, nothing needs to be perfect on the first try. Iteration on electronic voting is possible all the way up until you hinge serious stakes on it. A country level organization experimenting with technology to improve the experience of voting and lowering the bar for exercising one's citizenship rights should make us glad, not dismissive. The article series Schneier is basing his critique on is getting this right: > The e-voting system currently being developed by Swiss Post has been significantly improved. However, further developments, some of them substantial, are still required.

RandomLensman 3y ago
I am not sure why anyone should switch to something different so that it can eventually be as secure as paper - maybe I misunderstand. What experience needs improving in the paper ballots that needs to go beyond paper? What bar needs to be lowered and is that desirable?
- mariusor 3y ago
  The main downside of paper ballots is the slowness and contrivance of the process. I think it's a phenomenon that's present in most countries that don't have mandatory voting law to see very low participation, especially with the younger demographic. Having to set aside a whole day to exercise your rights as a citizen is ridiculous in my opinion and we can do a lot better. (Seeing as the article is about Switzerland, I would say their mail ballot initiative is a step in the right direction but to me it also looks less secure than paper ballots). Another one is speed. People in this thread complain that some regions in the US only had their final counts for the last presidential election days, if not weeks after the voting ended. How is that acceptable? In my opinion, when voting is as easy as pushing a button in an application or on a website, the democratic process will have a wider reach and could be used for many more things than the very important ones, like presidential elections or referenda (again the Swiss already do this AFAIK).
  - Tainnor 3y ago
    Swiss people have been able to vote via mail-in vote since forever and there were never any instances of large-scale fraud that I know of. It's true that in-person voting is safer. If you mail in your ballot, nobody can verify that you were truly alone and weren't coerced into giving your vote. And of course, it's not rare for e.g. a child to fill out the ballot for its senior parent etc. But it's still hard to commit large-scale fraud, as you'd need to be in control of the mail delivery.
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    Speed is not a paper thing, it can have results within hours in large countries. Voting with paper also doesn't have to take all day - a few minutes at a polling station or even less by mail ballot (fraud isn't an issue of paper here). Also, voting is more than a right, it is exercising authority and that might perhaps need at least some minimum of hurdle in it to get focus. In terms of broader and more fluid democracy - perhaps, but need to be careful to maintain focus and not end up in something gamified.
    - 3y ago