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> Norway is not in the EU. You are right, thank you! I just fixed that. > Coming from a Spaniard? Go fuck yourself. I was already fixing the error, and writi

by tripu 3y ago

> Norway is not in the EU. You are right, thank you! I just fixed that. > Coming from a Spaniard? Go fuck yourself. I was already fixing the error, and writing in my head the kind answer above. I hadn't seen this nasty comment. Why the ad hominem? I'm ranking governments — not individuals — according to international reports I've seen. Those classifications are debatable, of course. There might be bias, or nuances I'm missing. But why do you presume malice on my part? How on Earth is it relevant that I'm a Spaniard?

mbork_pl 3y ago
> How on Earth is it relevant that I'm a Spaniard? He probably can't trust you because _he's known too many Spaniards_. (Sorry for being off-topic, but I really could resist making that reference to the greatest movie of all time;-).) More on topic: > Hungary and Poland, are still immature barely-liberal regimes with more than a whiff of political repression I don't know what reports you've read, but I don't think we have any "political repression" here in Poland. Mind you, we had a huge demonstration opposing the ruling party 2 weeks ago (and many more in earlier months/years), and I haven't heard about any nasty consequences for people taking part in them. Though there is a lot of propaganda, both in the country and abroad, painting the government (which, by the way, was more or less voted out two days in an election) as some kind of evil empire, but that is just that - propaganda. That said, I understand that (almost) nobody has time to study politics of 50+ (or more) countries just to write a blog post or something, so it's not like I blame you.
- tripu 3y ago
  > I don't know what reports you've read I used these reports, which I already knew before writing this post: • Both Poland and Hungary are classified as “flawed democracies” by The Economist. Only 24 countries are considered to be “full democracies” (and this is irrelevant, but Spain happens to be among them). https://pages.eiu.com/rs/753-RIQ-438/images/DI-final-version-report.pdf https://pages.eiu.com/rs/753-RIQ-438/images/DI-final-version... • On a scale of 0–100 on political freedom, Freedom House gives Poland 81 points and Hungary 66 points. (This is irrelevant, but Spain gets 90 points.) https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores?sort=desc&order=Total%20Score%20and%20Status https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores?sort... • The UN's Human Development Index ranks Poland #34 and Hungary #46. (This is irrelevant, but Spain ranks #27.) https://hdr.undp.org/system/files/documents/global-report-document/hdr2021-22pdf_1.pdf https://hdr.undp.org/system/files/documents/global-report-do... • Amnesty International on Poland: “Access to abortion was further limited. Criminal charges were used to curtail freedom of expression. The authorities continued to erode the independence of the judiciary. Freedom of peaceful assembly was restricted. Violations of LGBTI rights persisted.” https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/poland/report-poland/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/... • Amnesty International on Hungary: “Discrimination against LGBTI and Roma people persisted. Women’s sexual and reproductive rights suffered significant rollback. Teachers were denied the right to strike. Pushbacks of refugees and migrants continued in violation of EU law. The European Court of Human Rights ruled that Hungary had violated the ban on collective expulsions. Other judgments from the Court were not fully implemented. […] The European Parliament declared in September that Hungary could not be considered a full democracy.” https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/hungary/report-hungary/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/...
  - johnisgood 3y ago
    They classify Hungary as a "flawed democracy" because people living in Hungary do not support Western values as much as they would like them to do. I would take those classifications with a pinch of salt. Both the Hungarian government and the Hungarian people are seeking to keep their cultural values, and/or traditions. Telling them to do this and that to undermine it is going to be responded to with criticism. Of course the West and especially the EU hates them. In fact, Hungary is being extremely hated for staying neutral with regarding to the Ukraine-Russia war, and refusing to send weapons or money for weapons to Ukraine. Yes, Hungary is hated because of its pacifist views. Now, would you ever take anyone seriously if they hated Hungary for not supporting and refusing to fuel the war? They think that Hungary is a flawed democracy because (and maybe for other reasons as well) the Hungarian people (!) keep voting for Orbán.
    - tripu 3y ago
      I'm not denying that bias or that animosity that you describe. It may well be that Hungary is despised in some circles because it's more conservative than most European countries. That is still compatible with a dispassionate evaluation of the democratic quality of its political system. Again, I'm not necessarily defending my sources here. But I'm not automatically discounting them, either. The Economist classifies Hungary as a flawed democracy due to a very poor mark in "political participation", "functioning of government" and "civil liberties". Those sections look at measures such as "voter participation/turn-out for national elections", "the degree to which the judiciary is independent of government influence", "the degree to which citizens are treated equally under the law", "how pervasive is corruption", "is there an effective system of checks and balances on the exercise of government authority", etc. Freedom House ranks Hungary poorly in aspects such as "are safeguards against official corruption strong and effective", "are there free and independent media", "is there freedom for nongovernmental organizations, particularly those that are engaged in human rights– and governance-related work", "is there an independent judiciary", etc. If you have reports that put Hungary at the top on rankings of democratic health, freedom, civil rights, etc — please share them, and we can evaluate their merits. Otherwise, these reports are the most comprehensive I know of, so I have to use those.
Radim 3y ago
A reaction to the relentless anti-Polish & anti-Hungarian propaganda being spewed by the "mature fully-liberal regimes" of the EU. Enough. You'd think the people of Poland and Hungary (who voted in their leaders, democratically, repeatedly) have horns and drink baby blood. This undermines your other valid points re/ privacy – who'd want to hitch their moral wagon to someone this naive? The "Spaniard" part was in reference Spain being the bedrock of fascism (via Spaniards…), and remaining a dictatorship long after WW2. In stark contrast to the struggles of Poland's "immature" democratic republic during the same period. The irony was too sweet to pass up.

by tripu 3y ago

mbork_pl 3y ago

> How on Earth is it relevant that I'm a Spaniard? He probably can't trust you because _he's known too many Spaniards_. (Sorry for being off-topic, but I really could resist making that reference to the greatest movie of all time;-).) More on topic: > Hungary and Poland, are still immature barely-liberal regimes with more than a whiff of political repression I don't know what reports you've read, but I don't think we have any "political repression" here in Poland. Mind you, we had a huge demonstration opposing the ruling party 2 weeks ago (and many more in earlier months/years), and I haven't heard about any nasty consequences for people taking part in them. Though there is a lot of propaganda, both in the country and abroad, painting the government (which, by the way, was more or less voted out two days in an election) as some kind of evil empire, but that is just that - propaganda. That said, I understand that (almost) nobody has time to study politics of 50+ (or more) countries just to write a blog post or something, so it's not like I blame you.

tripu 3y ago
> I don't know what reports you've read I used these reports, which I already knew before writing this post: • Both Poland and Hungary are classified as “flawed democracies” by The Economist. Only 24 countries are considered to be “full democracies” (and this is irrelevant, but Spain happens to be among them). https://pages.eiu.com/rs/753-RIQ-438/images/DI-final-version-report.pdf https://pages.eiu.com/rs/753-RIQ-438/images/DI-final-version... • On a scale of 0–100 on political freedom, Freedom House gives Poland 81 points and Hungary 66 points. (This is irrelevant, but Spain gets 90 points.) https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores?sort=desc&order=Total%20Score%20and%20Status https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores?sort... • The UN's Human Development Index ranks Poland #34 and Hungary #46. (This is irrelevant, but Spain ranks #27.) https://hdr.undp.org/system/files/documents/global-report-document/hdr2021-22pdf_1.pdf https://hdr.undp.org/system/files/documents/global-report-do... • Amnesty International on Poland: “Access to abortion was further limited. Criminal charges were used to curtail freedom of expression. The authorities continued to erode the independence of the judiciary. Freedom of peaceful assembly was restricted. Violations of LGBTI rights persisted.” https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/poland/report-poland/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/... • Amnesty International on Hungary: “Discrimination against LGBTI and Roma people persisted. Women’s sexual and reproductive rights suffered significant rollback. Teachers were denied the right to strike. Pushbacks of refugees and migrants continued in violation of EU law. The European Court of Human Rights ruled that Hungary had violated the ban on collective expulsions. Other judgments from the Court were not fully implemented. […] The European Parliament declared in September that Hungary could not be considered a full democracy.” https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/hungary/report-hungary/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/...
- johnisgood 3y ago
  They classify Hungary as a "flawed democracy" because people living in Hungary do not support Western values as much as they would like them to do. I would take those classifications with a pinch of salt. Both the Hungarian government and the Hungarian people are seeking to keep their cultural values, and/or traditions. Telling them to do this and that to undermine it is going to be responded to with criticism. Of course the West and especially the EU hates them. In fact, Hungary is being extremely hated for staying neutral with regarding to the Ukraine-Russia war, and refusing to send weapons or money for weapons to Ukraine. Yes, Hungary is hated because of its pacifist views. Now, would you ever take anyone seriously if they hated Hungary for not supporting and refusing to fuel the war? They think that Hungary is a flawed democracy because (and maybe for other reasons as well) the Hungarian people (!) keep voting for Orbán.
  - tripu 3y ago
    I'm not denying that bias or that animosity that you describe. It may well be that Hungary is despised in some circles because it's more conservative than most European countries. That is still compatible with a dispassionate evaluation of the democratic quality of its political system. Again, I'm not necessarily defending my sources here. But I'm not automatically discounting them, either. The Economist classifies Hungary as a flawed democracy due to a very poor mark in "political participation", "functioning of government" and "civil liberties". Those sections look at measures such as "voter participation/turn-out for national elections", "the degree to which the judiciary is independent of government influence", "the degree to which citizens are treated equally under the law", "how pervasive is corruption", "is there an effective system of checks and balances on the exercise of government authority", etc. Freedom House ranks Hungary poorly in aspects such as "are safeguards against official corruption strong and effective", "are there free and independent media", "is there freedom for nongovernmental organizations, particularly those that are engaged in human rights– and governance-related work", "is there an independent judiciary", etc. If you have reports that put Hungary at the top on rankings of democratic health, freedom, civil rights, etc — please share them, and we can evaluate their merits. Otherwise, these reports are the most comprehensive I know of, so I have to use those.

Radim 3y ago

A reaction to the relentless anti-Polish & anti-Hungarian propaganda being spewed by the "mature fully-liberal regimes" of the EU. Enough. You'd think the people of Poland and Hungary (who voted in their leaders, democratically, repeatedly) have horns and drink baby blood. This undermines your other valid points re/ privacy – who'd want to hitch their moral wagon to someone this naive? The "Spaniard" part was in reference Spain being the bedrock of fascism (via Spaniards…), and remaining a dictatorship long after WW2. In stark contrast to the struggles of Poland's "immature" democratic republic during the same period. The irony was too sweet to pass up.