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For a system to be Turing-complete, it should implement at least three operations: addition, negation, conditional jump. If there are similar processes inside a

For a system to be Turing-complete, it should implement at least three operations: addition, negation, conditional jump. If there are similar processes inside a star, then yes, that star can be considered Turing-complete. "Computation" is just how we call it in math; in a star, it can be physical gas expansion, thermal convection, etc. But the outcome and its fundamental properties are essentially the same despite different forms of a particular presentation.

fluoridation 3y ago
So are you abandoning the initial thesis that computation is a sign of life, or are you implying the sun is a computer built by some unknown form of life?
- garganzol 3y ago
  The implication is that a star may be an unknown form of life, in theory.
  - fluoridation 3y ago
    This implies that everything is alive since, like I said, we have no way to unequivocally distinguish computation from non-computation. Are the molecular vibrations in a rock actually computing something? How could we possibly tell? What's more, that rock might itself be a processing element of a larger computer and its own processing elements might themselves be computers, so in fact life exists fractally at all levels of magnification.
    - garganzol 3y ago
      > Are the molecular vibrations in a rock actually computing something? Not directly, but without them chemical reactions would not be possible. "The molecular vibrations", Brownian movement, or, more formally, temperature determines how fast the reactions could occur. It's a physical equivalent of a clock signal in a computer. Without temperature (t=0), "molecular vibrations" do not occur, so all chemical reactions stop, making active computations based on those reactions impossible. This is a physical equivalent of a halt state in a digital computer. > What's more, that rock might itself be a processing element of a larger computer and its own processing elements might themselves be computers, so in fact life exists fractally at all levels of magnification This is logically wrong. Water is a chemical substance. It makes life possible, but it's not alive by itself because it does not meet the formal criteria. Just like a single transistor is not a CPU.
      - fluoridation 3y ago
        >Not directly How can you possibly tell? Yes, Brownian motion looks random and meaningless to us, but how could you tell it does not look meaningful to someone? >It makes life possible, but it's not alive by itself because it does not meet the formal criteria. If you accept that the sun might be alive you must accept that water might be alive, since you can't definitively say that computation is not happening in either of them. >Just like a single transistor is not a CPU. I can't say for certain that a transistor is not a CPU to someone. A single atom could hypothetically be powerful enough to compute something.
        garganzol 3y ago
        > Brownian motion looks random and meaningless to us, but how could you tell it does not look meaningful to someone? Random generator is not a CPU either. >A single atom could hypothetically be powerful enough to compute something. I agree. But if we cannot extract the useful effect, that potential power is diminished to zero.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

fluoridation 3y ago

So are you abandoning the initial thesis that computation is a sign of life, or are you implying the sun is a computer built by some unknown form of life?

garganzol 3y ago
The implication is that a star may be an unknown form of life, in theory.
- fluoridation 3y ago
  This implies that everything is alive since, like I said, we have no way to unequivocally distinguish computation from non-computation. Are the molecular vibrations in a rock actually computing something? How could we possibly tell? What's more, that rock might itself be a processing element of a larger computer and its own processing elements might themselves be computers, so in fact life exists fractally at all levels of magnification.
  - garganzol 3y ago
    > Are the molecular vibrations in a rock actually computing something? Not directly, but without them chemical reactions would not be possible. "The molecular vibrations", Brownian movement, or, more formally, temperature determines how fast the reactions could occur. It's a physical equivalent of a clock signal in a computer. Without temperature (t=0), "molecular vibrations" do not occur, so all chemical reactions stop, making active computations based on those reactions impossible. This is a physical equivalent of a halt state in a digital computer. > What's more, that rock might itself be a processing element of a larger computer and its own processing elements might themselves be computers, so in fact life exists fractally at all levels of magnification This is logically wrong. Water is a chemical substance. It makes life possible, but it's not alive by itself because it does not meet the formal criteria. Just like a single transistor is not a CPU.
    - fluoridation 3y ago
      >Not directly How can you possibly tell? Yes, Brownian motion looks random and meaningless to us, but how could you tell it does not look meaningful to someone? >It makes life possible, but it's not alive by itself because it does not meet the formal criteria. If you accept that the sun might be alive you must accept that water might be alive, since you can't definitively say that computation is not happening in either of them. >Just like a single transistor is not a CPU. I can't say for certain that a transistor is not a CPU to someone. A single atom could hypothetically be powerful enough to compute something.
      - garganzol 3y ago
        > Brownian motion looks random and meaningless to us, but how could you tell it does not look meaningful to someone? Random generator is not a CPU either. >A single atom could hypothetically be powerful enough to compute something. I agree. But if we cannot extract the useful effect, that potential power is diminished to zero.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]