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I aim for well-being because I think that whatever is beneficial to others is likely to be beneficial to me as well, for example if I help my neighbors out whe

I aim for well-being because I think that whatever is beneficial to others is likely to be beneficial to me as well, for example if I help my neighbors out when they are in trouble, they’re in turn more likely to help me. There are a few common theist and theist-adjacent arguments in your post including the fine-tuning argument and the simulation hypothesis, all of which I reject due to lack of evidence in their favor. I still don’t understand what you mean when you’re trying to identify “the meaning of the universe” or of humanity. The universe is all that we can see, nothing more. To try to assign meaning to it is, to me, exactly like trying to assign meaning to the Sun, or a rock, or the Andromeda galaxy, just at a larger scale.

fsflover 3y ago
> I aim for well-being because I think that whatever is beneficial to others is likely to be beneficial to me as well My question was explicitly about cases when you have no benefit whatsoever in this life. > theist-adjacent arguments in your post Yes, how else can you argue about "the meaning of the universe" otherwise? Science simply does not try to answer such questions, it asks other questions. Of course there is no evidence for any of that and you have a good reason to reject it. But by rejecting it you are also, in my understanding, rejecting the reason to help the humanity whenever that is against your own goals (like with having children!).
- angoragoats 3y ago
  > My question was explicitly about cases when you have no benefit whatsoever in this life. I’m sorry, I didn’t get that from your post. Can you give an example case where I’d have no benefit whatsoever? > Yes, how else can you argue about "the meaning of the universe" otherwise? Can you please define “the meaning of the universe” for me? I stated previously that I hold no beliefs about that, and that is primarily because I don’t understand what you and others mean by that phrase. Other than stating I hold no beliefs about it I have not been arguing for/against it, again, because I don’t know what it means for the universe to have a meaning. If you believe the universe has meaning, can you please first define what that means, and then cite evidence in support of it?
  - fsflover 3y ago
    > I’m sorry, I didn’t get that from your post. Sorry for being unclear. > Can you give an example case where I’d have no benefit whatsoever? Let's say you donate money to African children or survivors of an earthquake, or partiipate in a project that will not have any results in your lifetime (like Voyager maybe?). Or you go to a climate demonstration while being old, without any chance to see any consequence of it. > Can you please define “the meaning of the universe” for me? I guess there can be no scientific definition here. But imagine there was someone who created the Universe and tuned it for humanity to appear and develop, in a hope of having a good companion. In such case, the meaning of the Universe would be to eventually give a companion. Or maybe, there was nobody, but the Universe still appeared in such a way that more and more complicated structures are created infinitely. What is a purpose of a living cell? It is to collect, process, and transfer further information about the environment (to survive). Same for human DNA, and maybe for humans, too. We can process information much more efficiently with our tools already and enter the informational age - maybe for a reason? To me knowledge is the meaning of the Universe/humanity, and only knowledge will reveal if there is something more here.
    - angoragoats 3y ago
      > Let's say you donate money to African children or survivors of an earthquake, or partiipate in a project that will not have any results in your lifetime (like Voyager maybe?). Or you go to a climate demonstration while being old, without any chance to see any consequence of it. For a lot of these types of things I could argue that my children might still benefit even if I wouldn't (e.g. the climate change thing). For others, I'd argue that I maybe I have an innate desire to want to see the human race continue. Call it a biological instinct, maybe. > But imagine there was someone who created the Universe and tuned it for humanity to appear and develop This is a huge leap so I'm not really that interested in considering it unless there is evidence. > Or maybe, there was nobody, but the Universe still appeared in such a way that more and more complicated structures are created infinitely. What is a purpose of a living cell? It is to collect, process, and transfer further information about the environment (to survive). Same for human DNA, and maybe for humans, too. Yes, maybe. But this seems to be veering off-topic from my original question about what does it mean to ascribe meaning to the universe. Are you equating the purpose of life (human or otherwise) with the meaning of the universe? Sorry if I'm not understanding but this still seems very hand-wavy to me and I'd like to understand exactly what it is you're talking about before trying to argue for or against it.

fsflover 3y ago

> I aim for well-being because I think that whatever is beneficial to others is likely to be beneficial to me as well My question was explicitly about cases when you have no benefit whatsoever in this life. > theist-adjacent arguments in your post Yes, how else can you argue about "the meaning of the universe" otherwise? Science simply does not try to answer such questions, it asks other questions. Of course there is no evidence for any of that and you have a good reason to reject it. But by rejecting it you are also, in my understanding, rejecting the reason to help the humanity whenever that is against your own goals (like with having children!).

angoragoats 3y ago
> My question was explicitly about cases when you have no benefit whatsoever in this life. I’m sorry, I didn’t get that from your post. Can you give an example case where I’d have no benefit whatsoever? > Yes, how else can you argue about "the meaning of the universe" otherwise? Can you please define “the meaning of the universe” for me? I stated previously that I hold no beliefs about that, and that is primarily because I don’t understand what you and others mean by that phrase. Other than stating I hold no beliefs about it I have not been arguing for/against it, again, because I don’t know what it means for the universe to have a meaning. If you believe the universe has meaning, can you please first define what that means, and then cite evidence in support of it?
- fsflover 3y ago
  > I’m sorry, I didn’t get that from your post. Sorry for being unclear. > Can you give an example case where I’d have no benefit whatsoever? Let's say you donate money to African children or survivors of an earthquake, or partiipate in a project that will not have any results in your lifetime (like Voyager maybe?). Or you go to a climate demonstration while being old, without any chance to see any consequence of it. > Can you please define “the meaning of the universe” for me? I guess there can be no scientific definition here. But imagine there was someone who created the Universe and tuned it for humanity to appear and develop, in a hope of having a good companion. In such case, the meaning of the Universe would be to eventually give a companion. Or maybe, there was nobody, but the Universe still appeared in such a way that more and more complicated structures are created infinitely. What is a purpose of a living cell? It is to collect, process, and transfer further information about the environment (to survive). Same for human DNA, and maybe for humans, too. We can process information much more efficiently with our tools already and enter the informational age - maybe for a reason? To me knowledge is the meaning of the Universe/humanity, and only knowledge will reveal if there is something more here.
  - angoragoats 3y ago
    > Let's say you donate money to African children or survivors of an earthquake, or partiipate in a project that will not have any results in your lifetime (like Voyager maybe?). Or you go to a climate demonstration while being old, without any chance to see any consequence of it. For a lot of these types of things I could argue that my children might still benefit even if I wouldn't (e.g. the climate change thing). For others, I'd argue that I maybe I have an innate desire to want to see the human race continue. Call it a biological instinct, maybe. > But imagine there was someone who created the Universe and tuned it for humanity to appear and develop This is a huge leap so I'm not really that interested in considering it unless there is evidence. > Or maybe, there was nobody, but the Universe still appeared in such a way that more and more complicated structures are created infinitely. What is a purpose of a living cell? It is to collect, process, and transfer further information about the environment (to survive). Same for human DNA, and maybe for humans, too. Yes, maybe. But this seems to be veering off-topic from my original question about what does it mean to ascribe meaning to the universe. Are you equating the purpose of life (human or otherwise) with the meaning of the universe? Sorry if I'm not understanding but this still seems very hand-wavy to me and I'd like to understand exactly what it is you're talking about before trying to argue for or against it.