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What about computation completeness as in a Turing-complete vs. non-Turing-complete system as a marker of life? Morphology then can be characterized by the pres
by garganzol 3y ago
What about computation completeness as in a Turing-complete vs. non-Turing-complete system as a marker of life? Morphology then can be characterized by the presence of features required for implementing computational operations.
For instance, Conway's Game of Life is a Turing-complete system.
- pringk02 3y agoI think you are falling into the trap of thinking everything looks like a nail when you have the most familiarity with hammers
- nathanfig 3y agoRight, this just seems like adding an alternate definition of life without moving the morphology problem.
- garganzol 3y agoThe key point is that morphology features can be mapped to equivalent math operations. So we can build from there to formally determine whether a given object can be alive or not.
- marginalia_nu 3y agoInteresting idea, but what reasons do we have to think this would this be true?
- garganzol 3y agoWe can look at a cell as a Turing-complete bio-chemical machine. Given the right chemical substances, it produces the desired outcomes. For example, an intra-cell protein building machinery is very much an interpreter executing code (from RNA). All other stuff like replication, cognition, etc is built upon these basic cellular blocks.
- marginalia_nu 3y agoRight, but how can we tell this is not an accidental property?
- garganzol 3y agoIf we inhibit that property then a cell dies. This is not a proof, of course, but let's call it a lemma.
- otabdeveloper4 3y ago"Turing complete" is any theoretical construct that can do infinite recursion. Such a thing doesn't really exist in the real world, of course, so discussing it outside of the realm of pure math is not useful.
- garganzol 3y ago> Such a thing doesn't really exist in the real world, of course You are Turing-complete, including your consciousness and cognition. But your comment tries to prove otherwise. This situation is called logical contradiction, suggesting that your initial assumption may very well be false.
- fluoridation 3y agoTuring-completeness requires the ability to recall an infinite number of bits, which is obviously impossible in physical reality. A Turing machine with that property removed is a pushdown automaton.
- garganzol 3y ago> Turing-completeness requires the ability to recall an infinite number of bits It does not. The number of available bits just determines the maximum complexity of the system that can be built.
- fluoridation 3y agoI mean, the tape being infinite is part of the definition of what a Turing machine is.
- fluoridation 3y agoCan we unequivocally distinguish computation from non-computation in the real world? What's the difference between the physical processes inside a computer and inside a star that would let us say definitively that yes, one is computation and the other is not?
- garganzol 3y agoFor a system to be Turing-complete, it should implement at least three operations: addition, negation, conditional jump. If there are similar processes inside a star, then yes, that star can be considered Turing-complete. "Computation" is just how we call it in math; in a star, it can be physical gas expansion, thermal convection, etc. But the outcome and its fundamental properties are essentially the same despite different forms of a particular presentation.
- fluoridation 3y agoSo are you abandoning the initial thesis that computation is a sign of life, or are you implying the sun is a computer built by some unknown form of life?
- garganzol 3y agoThe implication is that a star may be an unknown form of life, in theory.
- fluoridation 3y agoThis implies that everything is alive since, like I said, we have no way to unequivocally distinguish computation from non-computation. Are the molecular vibrations in a rock actually computing something? How could we possibly tell? What's more, that rock might itself be a processing element of a larger computer and its own processing elements might themselves be computers, so in fact life exists fractally at all levels of magnification.
- 3y ago