> Most left but some were forcefully expelled. Then, not allowed to return (like the people of Al-Majdal (Ashkelon), a holy place for Shia' muslims, as one exam

> Most left but some were forcefully expelled. Then, not allowed to return (like the people of Al-Majdal (Ashkelon), a holy place for Shia' muslims, as one example). Yes. On the other hand there's the story of the residence of Haifa where the local Jews begged the local Arabs to stay. To this day it's an integrated city. I was mostly talking about the annexation of the territories. Israel did annex the Golan Heights after the 67 war since its population is relatively small. > Speaking as a non-Israeli, the only destruction I see is that of the Palestinians. tbh, the Oslo Accords and the Mandate is destroying Palestinians more than it is destroying the idea of Zion... so if I was a Zionist, I'd say things are working as planned. I think the original Oslo accord was planned to work for both sides. What exists now is a corruption of the original idea meant to "keep the peace". > To me, the constant oppression from one side and the retaliatory and heinous struggle from the other side is even more fucked up. I agree and many of the Palestinians I know are in the tech industry. I think education and a booming middle class will help. Unfortunately, as they are now this is too far off. In terms of values the median Palestinian is FAR more religious and conservative. There's a lot of seriously crazy people there. That's the main reason Egypt refuses to let anyone in. It isn't something that can be realistically assimilated. > > I doubt it will still be a democracy even for us when the dust settles... > Why do you say so? Or, you mean the far-right will gather more support? The prime minister has been under indictment for a while now. He is a terrible demagogue. The worst kind. He used the extreme far right to take over the government and is slowly dismantling the checks and balances over the democracy. This caught him in the middle of that. I do believe he actually planned for this to happen, he just didn't realize how terrible it would be. Typically, right-wing leaders use strife to strengthen their position and attack dissent. It's already something his people are doing by blaming the people who demonstrated against him, claiming we weakened the country... I think he will assume emergency powers and will use them to circumvent democracy. There are already signs e.g. a recent attempt to curtail free speech etc. > > 2M human shields to hide behind this can stretch for years... > Sucks for the Gazans, most of whom are kids Yes. One positive note that came out the other day was that the military showed off its situation room where they showed a system that helps them track the population via cell phone broadcasts. Not accurate but that gives them a sense of where the population is. They apparently use this to aim bombings into areas that aren't populated. It's still horrible, but at least some effort is going into minimizing civilian impact. > It is liberal except for when it comes to the treatment of Palestinians, it'd seem? The Palestinians aren't a part of Israel. So yes. > Almost as if Israel wants to have the cake and eat it too. This is the exact problem. Israeli governments wanted the control but didn't want the annexation which would reduce the Jewish majority. To be fair, it's hard to know what needs to be done here. There was no prior country that can be rebuilt. Since Arafat there has been no singular leader who can demonstrate control/unity. Even he was pretty problematic. Most Israelis look at this as: we tried to give them a country and they kept sending suicide bombers/rockets. This is a bit distorted since it looks at the Palestinian people as a single mass. The problem is their lack of leadership. The reason they have weak leadership is due to the Israeli right wing which sabotaged that leadership. > EU emerged from a heinous war in less than 50 years by tearing down borders. The differences between the countries in the EU are relatively small. They are all of the same religion and were all liberal democracies before seeking unity. I don't think we can culturally assimilate. Even within the current Arab population in Israel we see things like violence towards women (honor killings) etc. It might go away as our society becomes more homogeneous but it will take a generational shift. > I see that Palestine will always be at a disadvantage I think the right thing is separate states. Historically, forcing unification created strife and violence. But I do think Israel has a duty and an interest in the success of the Palestinian people. If they will have a thriving middle class and good education they will be less likely to seek violence. I hope the US will demand something like the Marshal plan, to rebuild Gaza but also help structure it. I don't know if this will work though. They failed pretty badly in Afghanistan and Iraq.