3 ms·

You did not answer a simple question - how do you decide someone is a free loader, whether they freely decided to not produce? I don't know. Just assuming anyo

by rini17 3y ago

You did not answer a simple question - how do you decide someone is a free loader, whether they freely decided to not produce? I don't know. Just assuming anyone to be a freeloader is immoral. (By and large, there can be exceptions where they are loud and obnoxious freeloaders, but these are just exceptions.)

aristofun 3y ago
> You did not answer a simple question - how do you decide someone is a free loader, whether they freely decided to not produce? If someone chooses not do anything valuable to the society (while having obvious ability to do something - like no illness, no disabilities etc.) — it is the definition of freeloader I use. So, do you think it is immoral or not? If you don't know, lets' leave morality. Do you think such people are helpful to the society?
- rini17 3y ago
  No, I will repeat this again and again, dividing people to helfpul and not helpful is immoral. Of course it's not obvious who is who! How can you boldly proclaim that while we have pandemic of invisible mental illnesses, drug abuse and long covid? Even many people with obvious and surmountable disabilities are neglected and gave up trying to do anything valuable. If you let them perish that ends up more expensive for whole society than supporting them all, and enabling at least some of them to be, as you say "helpful". You can't sort them out in advance, that's why everyone should be supported equally.
  - aristofun 3y ago
    I wish you could remain logical in this discussion. I ask you: is it good to be X? Your answer: how can you tell if someone is X? (Presupposition that we have some good enough way to know was _outside_ of my question) Good luck with promoting utopias )
    - rini17 3y ago
      Logical and moral reasoning about nebulous concepts (such as the "freeloader") is a road to hell. I grew up in communist Czechoslovakia and back then all bourgeoisie were called freeloaders(or even parasites) because they supposedly don't work, don't provide value, just extract profits from capital. Is that true or why it's not true? Clear as mud. I started this thread by pointing out that religious and cultural texts ask us to cancel debts. For thousands of years. And in societies that had much less surplus production of everything. Not do it all the time, but once you do it, just cancel all of them, not pick debtors that "provide value". Is that bad and immoral advice?
      - aristofun 3y ago
        What kind of debt do you universally cancel when introducing UBI? I don’t follow. Ps: i grew up in ussr, i know couple things about communism & utopias :)

by rini17 3y ago

aristofun 3y ago

> You did not answer a simple question - how do you decide someone is a free loader, whether they freely decided to not produce? If someone chooses not do anything valuable to the society (while having obvious ability to do something - like no illness, no disabilities etc.) — it is the definition of freeloader I use. So, do you think it is immoral or not? If you don't know, lets' leave morality. Do you think such people are helpful to the society?

rini17 3y ago
No, I will repeat this again and again, dividing people to helfpul and not helpful is immoral. Of course it's not obvious who is who! How can you boldly proclaim that while we have pandemic of invisible mental illnesses, drug abuse and long covid? Even many people with obvious and surmountable disabilities are neglected and gave up trying to do anything valuable. If you let them perish that ends up more expensive for whole society than supporting them all, and enabling at least some of them to be, as you say "helpful". You can't sort them out in advance, that's why everyone should be supported equally.
- aristofun 3y ago
  I wish you could remain logical in this discussion. I ask you: is it good to be X? Your answer: how can you tell if someone is X? (Presupposition that we have some good enough way to know was _outside_ of my question) Good luck with promoting utopias )
  - rini17 3y ago
    Logical and moral reasoning about nebulous concepts (such as the "freeloader") is a road to hell. I grew up in communist Czechoslovakia and back then all bourgeoisie were called freeloaders(or even parasites) because they supposedly don't work, don't provide value, just extract profits from capital. Is that true or why it's not true? Clear as mud. I started this thread by pointing out that religious and cultural texts ask us to cancel debts. For thousands of years. And in societies that had much less surplus production of everything. Not do it all the time, but once you do it, just cancel all of them, not pick debtors that "provide value". Is that bad and immoral advice?
    - aristofun 3y ago
      What kind of debt do you universally cancel when introducing UBI? I don’t follow. Ps: i grew up in ussr, i know couple things about communism & utopias :)