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> if you're importing solar panels built with Chinese coal and deploy them in Europe / Northern US, you're not actually decarboning anything, and instead you're

by hannob 3y ago

> if you're importing solar panels built with Chinese coal and deploy them in Europe / Northern US, you're not actually decarboning anything, and instead you're increasing the carbon footprint but move it abroad. That is an urban legend and not supported by any evidence. Full solar lifecycle emissions are around an order of magnitude lower than fossil fuels.

throwaway60742 3y ago
Does "full solar lifecycle emissions" include the gas and coal powerplant you use because you couldn't build energy storage and your electric grid can't handle the peak power? Does it include the reconstruction of the grid it necessitated?
- kemotep 3y ago
  Are you saying that if we don’t build solar panels, we won’t have to use electricity generated by gas and coal?
  - throwaway60742 3y ago
    Yes, because instead of wind/solar+storage+grid capable of handling the peaks, we would be building nuclear. Using much less concrete and much less diesel for construction trucks.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      You actually believe, that producing a solar panel, transporting it to the installation site on the other side of the planet, and maintaining it consumes more energy than the module will produce? Where do you get your numbers from, the back of a cereal box bought from Wish?
      - throwaway60742 3y ago
        I seriously believe that this is not the full story if we're talking about utility-scale energy.
    - kemotep 3y ago
      Currently the alternative to solar and wind, is coal and gas. Your argument that solar panels cost more in electricity to build and deploy could also be made about nuclear. I agree that we should build more nuclear power plants but do you have evidence that they require less infrastructure than solar? A nuclear power plant seems more expensive to build than a field full of panels. Uranium mining and refining is cheaper and easier than lithium mining and refining? Could you please share your sources I would like to read about that. Nuclear, solar, wind, geothermal, etc are all better than coal and gas. We need to build more, upgrade infrastructure, not limit ourselves to one solution as our energy needs and decarbonization efforts will evolve over time. But the alternative to solar isn’t nuclear its the status quo of gas and coal.
      - littlestymaar 3y ago
        > Currently the alternative to solar and wind, is coal and gas. No, and this vision is the problem. Hydro, geothermal, nuclear, are other options that can make sense depending on the context (of course you don't want to start a nuclear program from scratch, but if you already have a nuclear industry and you're in northern Europe, then it makes much more sense than solar).
        kemotep 3y ago
        I understand. Here in the US 70% of my electricity comes from coal and gas. My county literally passed a law banning solar projects a few years ago because of fear mongering about renewables. The alternative to solar is the status quo of coal and gas. To build out nuclear energy, you would not only have to take decades to build up the infrastructure and capacity but also convince locals that nuclear energy is a viable alternative when enough people were able to convince the local government that large scale solar projects are harmful to environment.
        littlestymaar 3y ago
        > I understand. Here in the US 70% of my electricity comes from coal and gas. My county literally passed a law banning solar projects a few years ago because of fear mongering about renewables. The alternative to solar is the status quo of coal and gas. But sometimes solar is not the alternative to the status quo, that's what I meant. By in many places of the US, solar is actually a viable choice though, and banning it there is as stupid as subsidizing it near the polar circle (something we actually do in Europe…). > but also convince locals that nuclear energy is a viable alternative when enough people were able to convince the local government that large scale solar projects are harmful to environment. In Europe the biggest, and by far, source of opposition to nuclear comes from renewable energy proponents, even in countries where it doesn't make sense (especially solar). That's how we got Germany to get rid of their perfectly functional nuclear plants, spending tons of money investing in inferior solutions (for the context), and consuming millions of tons of coal in the meantime. Similarly idiotic to your county banning solar…
littlestymaar 3y ago
> Full solar lifecycle emissions are around an order of magnitude lower than fossil fuels. This is nonsense. First of all, “fossil fuel” doesn't mean much as depending on the technology involved the CO2 amount per kWh varies a lot (GTCC vs dumb lignite plant, that's more than a 2x ratio). Then, when you're adding a solar panel you can't compare its output to the same amount of energy produced by “fossil fuel”, you must compare it to the energy mix of the country you're deploying it into (to take the most extreme example: if you're adding a solar panel in France, you're basically replacing nuclear with solar, so you're just adding CO2 emissions). Overall, with the very low solar yields we have in most Europe (everywhere but the Mediterranean) and the fact that in many country the electricity mix is multiple time less carbon-heavy than what coal gives you, your “order of magnitude” is gone. And I'm not even talking about the substitution effect here, where one Euro invested in solar in Europe is one Euro that doesn't get invested in a better decarbonation project (solar being financed elsewhere, wind, geothermal, nuclear), but that's also something to consider when advocating for a technology.

by hannob 3y ago

throwaway60742 3y ago

Does "full solar lifecycle emissions" include the gas and coal powerplant you use because you couldn't build energy storage and your electric grid can't handle the peak power? Does it include the reconstruction of the grid it necessitated?

kemotep 3y ago
Are you saying that if we don’t build solar panels, we won’t have to use electricity generated by gas and coal?
- throwaway60742 3y ago
  Yes, because instead of wind/solar+storage+grid capable of handling the peaks, we would be building nuclear. Using much less concrete and much less diesel for construction trucks.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    You actually believe, that producing a solar panel, transporting it to the installation site on the other side of the planet, and maintaining it consumes more energy than the module will produce? Where do you get your numbers from, the back of a cereal box bought from Wish?
    - throwaway60742 3y ago
      I seriously believe that this is not the full story if we're talking about utility-scale energy.
  - kemotep 3y ago
    Currently the alternative to solar and wind, is coal and gas. Your argument that solar panels cost more in electricity to build and deploy could also be made about nuclear. I agree that we should build more nuclear power plants but do you have evidence that they require less infrastructure than solar? A nuclear power plant seems more expensive to build than a field full of panels. Uranium mining and refining is cheaper and easier than lithium mining and refining? Could you please share your sources I would like to read about that. Nuclear, solar, wind, geothermal, etc are all better than coal and gas. We need to build more, upgrade infrastructure, not limit ourselves to one solution as our energy needs and decarbonization efforts will evolve over time. But the alternative to solar isn’t nuclear its the status quo of gas and coal.
    - littlestymaar 3y ago
      > Currently the alternative to solar and wind, is coal and gas. No, and this vision is the problem. Hydro, geothermal, nuclear, are other options that can make sense depending on the context (of course you don't want to start a nuclear program from scratch, but if you already have a nuclear industry and you're in northern Europe, then it makes much more sense than solar).
      - kemotep 3y ago
        I understand. Here in the US 70% of my electricity comes from coal and gas. My county literally passed a law banning solar projects a few years ago because of fear mongering about renewables. The alternative to solar is the status quo of coal and gas. To build out nuclear energy, you would not only have to take decades to build up the infrastructure and capacity but also convince locals that nuclear energy is a viable alternative when enough people were able to convince the local government that large scale solar projects are harmful to environment.
        littlestymaar 3y ago
        > I understand. Here in the US 70% of my electricity comes from coal and gas. My county literally passed a law banning solar projects a few years ago because of fear mongering about renewables. The alternative to solar is the status quo of coal and gas. But sometimes solar is not the alternative to the status quo, that's what I meant. By in many places of the US, solar is actually a viable choice though, and banning it there is as stupid as subsidizing it near the polar circle (something we actually do in Europe…). > but also convince locals that nuclear energy is a viable alternative when enough people were able to convince the local government that large scale solar projects are harmful to environment. In Europe the biggest, and by far, source of opposition to nuclear comes from renewable energy proponents, even in countries where it doesn't make sense (especially solar). That's how we got Germany to get rid of their perfectly functional nuclear plants, spending tons of money investing in inferior solutions (for the context), and consuming millions of tons of coal in the meantime. Similarly idiotic to your county banning solar…

littlestymaar 3y ago

> Full solar lifecycle emissions are around an order of magnitude lower than fossil fuels. This is nonsense. First of all, “fossil fuel” doesn't mean much as depending on the technology involved the CO2 amount per kWh varies a lot (GTCC vs dumb lignite plant, that's more than a 2x ratio). Then, when you're adding a solar panel you can't compare its output to the same amount of energy produced by “fossil fuel”, you must compare it to the energy mix of the country you're deploying it into (to take the most extreme example: if you're adding a solar panel in France, you're basically replacing nuclear with solar, so you're just adding CO2 emissions). Overall, with the very low solar yields we have in most Europe (everywhere but the Mediterranean) and the fact that in many country the electricity mix is multiple time less carbon-heavy than what coal gives you, your “order of magnitude” is gone. And I'm not even talking about the substitution effect here, where one Euro invested in solar in Europe is one Euro that doesn't get invested in a better decarbonation project (solar being financed elsewhere, wind, geothermal, nuclear), but that's also something to consider when advocating for a technology.