5 ms·

I find it amusing how they did not interview one single person who thought he or she might just choose a different way of transportation, instead of driving a c

by haspok 3y ago

I find it amusing how they did not interview one single person who thought he or she might just choose a different way of transportation, instead of driving a car, unless absolutely necessary. I used to commute in the north between two mid-sized cities, and any time I checked taking the car instead of the combined bike+rail travel would not have been faster, only much more inconvenient and more expensive (parking costs a lot, and not always easy to find...). Today we have e-bikes and scooters, so hilly terrain is not a problem anymore. What I do think IS a problem is driving is still way too cheap in the UK, compared to other transportation methods.

pjc50 3y ago
Wales manages to have both bad public transport and bad roads and bad weather and bad parking. Perhaps the speed limit drop is intended to "nudge" people, but I'm not convinced the alternatives are quite so ready yet.
- prmoustache 3y ago
  In your list, only bad public transport is a limiter. The hills and perceived insecurity[1] are probably the biggest limiters to biking. The former being solved by e-bikes. Bad weather is not that hard to deal with than some people would think. [1] insecurity leads to either of these 2 things: - people are afraid to ride bikes - people feel they would need to use an helmet, which most don't want to, especially women, because it mess with their hair.
eastbound 3y ago
If you compare train on a train-direct path, then there will be no other winner than trains. But I can make the same demonstration with planes: “If I live in Paris, how can I go to work in New York every morning? See, the Concorde is necessary.” More seriously: “If I live in suburbia, how can I change jobs in the city for a job which is not on the same train line?” It’s all about finding words to sustain one’s idea, not about caring for the lowlys. > Today we have e-bikes and scooters, so hilly terrain is not a problem anymore ebikes average at $100pm. I’m sure you will contradict me with lowballing, but there are also people for whom it’s much more expensive. And if you live with normal people, there are no bikes that you can keep secure at home or at work - we’re not all bourgeois with safe garages.
- haspok 3y ago
  > If you compare train on a train-direct path... That's why I specifically took an example of my then-commute, which consisted of 15mins to the train station, 25mins train ride, then 10mins to workplace. I wouldn't exactly call that "train-direct". The UK doesn't exactly have "suburbia" quite like the US, although there are definitely remote places without good public transport, distances are not beyond practical for non-driving. Another prominent UK feature is the "terraced house", with a small backyard patio, usually with a small shed. This is typical for a low-wage family, or in the towns even for wealthier people. Or you would be living in a semi-detached house, probably with a small garden. Storing a bike or two is mostly a non-issue.
phero_cnstrcts 3y ago
>still way too cheap Said no sane person ever.
- bogle 3y ago
  Why the UK Government has frozen fuel duty. Again. https://www.lse.ac.uk/granthaminstitute/news/why-the-uk-government-has-frozen-fuel-duty-again/ https://www.lse.ac.uk/granthaminstitute/news/why-the-uk-gove... The ruling Conservative Party are buying votes at the cost of the environment. It harms tax revenue, too, which should be put towards improving travel options.
- haspok 3y ago
  For a thousand pounds you can buy a small used car, tax it, insure it and drive it around for a bit. Meanwhile an average e-bike costs more than that. Does that sound sane to you?
  - didntcheck 3y ago
    So e-bikes are too expensive. I don't see why we should artificially make cars more expensive in response
eesmith 3y ago
It seems residents in the area doesn't have much of an alternative. The train service isn't running: > I'm travelling up the Rhondda Fawr valley from Pontypridd up to Treherbert - which is without its train line to Cardiff which is shut until the new year Google Maps says there's half-hourly bus service from Tonypandy to Cardiff, but it takes 75 minutes, vs. 40 minutes by car. It says the bike route is about 100 minutes.
- haspok 3y ago
  > which is shut until the new year Btw. is it a coincidence that they chose to write about this exact location, at this exact point in time (when there is no alternative way of transport)? (rhetorical question)
d1sxeyes 3y ago
I'm not that surprised I'm afraid. I am familiar with South Wales more than the rest of the country, but for many, many people, they live in small, former mining villages. If they're lucky, there's a bus or two every hour going to the nearest big city. If you work outside the city, or in a different city, your commute skyrockets. Additionally, many of these small villages only have very basic Nisa Today type newsagents/mini-markets, and the supermarkets are optimised for car travel, not bus (and certainly not scooter). It's also a pretty deprived area, and a car, while expensive, is essentially a necessity. An e-bike would be an additional cost on top of the car. There are also considerations around the weather, etc.
- rich_sasha 3y ago
  > There are also considerations around the weather, etc. That's quite an understatement. Wales is a very wet and windy country.
Gud 3y ago
It’s not just that driving is too cheap, but the other options sucks. Whoever is designing the inner cities clearly don’t give a shit about pedestrians. A city should be designed for pedestrians first but in the UK, the crosswalks aren’t even clearly marked!
- CalRobert 3y ago
  A city truly designed for pedestrians would let you cross the street safely anywhere you like, not just at designated crosswalks.
  - Gud 3y ago
    Exactly, which is the case in many European cities. For example, Antwerp, Zürich, Stockholm, all cities where you can feel a lot safer crossing the streets(“jaywalking“) than in any big city in the UK I’ve visited
lamontcg 3y ago
> I find it amusing how they did not interview one single person who thought he or she might just choose a different way of transportation, dropping speed limits doesn't do that. if you want netherlands, you need to invest in biking infrastructure and traffic calming. you can't just drop the speed limits and try to declare victory. > Today we have e-bikes and scooters, so hilly terrain is not a problem anymore. distracted drivers are still a problem. they dropped the speed limits to 25mph where i live and while i could buy an e-bike, i don't feel like getting myself killed for a principle, so i just drive 15 mph over the limit like literally everyone else.
- ahahahahah 3y ago
  > > I find it amusing how they did not interview one single person who thought he or she might just choose a different way of transportation, > dropping speed limits doesn't do that. Why just make shit up? Let's look at real data. In edinburgh, after speed limits were reduced, # of people biking increased significantly. https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/32217/evaluation-of-the-20mph-speed-limit-roll-out-three-years-post-implementation https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/32217/evaluation... In Belfast, after speed limits were reduced, traffic volume decreased significantly: https://jech.bmj.com/content/77/1/17 https://jech.bmj.com/content/77/1/17
  - lamontcg 3y ago
    Just looking at the Edinburgh study it is almost comically bad: > 4.5 ‘Before’ and ‘after’ surveys were also carried out at a selection of locations where the 30mph speed limit was retained. At these locations, average ‘after’ speeds in 2021 fell by 2.32mph compared with average ‘before’ speeds in 2016. This is a further decrease of 1.83mph since average ‘after’ speeds were recorded in 2019. Although many factors may have influenced this speed reduction, it could in part be attributed to the effect of speed reductions on surrounding streets, with drivers slowing their driving behaviour throughout Edinburgh. So the "control" streets also saw a decline in average speed, and the conclusion wasn't that the primary effect was due to increasing congestion over time, but instead clearly the speed limits just magically work everywhere. And the highest average speed on these streets was 32 mph to start with, before setting the speed limits. The roads already were doing the work there. That doesn't compare with the ~40 mph stroads we have around here that they've slapped a 25 mph sign onto and called it a day.

by haspok 3y ago

pjc50 3y ago

Wales manages to have both bad public transport and bad roads and bad weather and bad parking. Perhaps the speed limit drop is intended to "nudge" people, but I'm not convinced the alternatives are quite so ready yet.

prmoustache 3y ago
In your list, only bad public transport is a limiter. The hills and perceived insecurity[1] are probably the biggest limiters to biking. The former being solved by e-bikes. Bad weather is not that hard to deal with than some people would think. [1] insecurity leads to either of these 2 things: - people are afraid to ride bikes - people feel they would need to use an helmet, which most don't want to, especially women, because it mess with their hair.

eastbound 3y ago

If you compare train on a train-direct path, then there will be no other winner than trains. But I can make the same demonstration with planes: “If I live in Paris, how can I go to work in New York every morning? See, the Concorde is necessary.” More seriously: “If I live in suburbia, how can I change jobs in the city for a job which is not on the same train line?” It’s all about finding words to sustain one’s idea, not about caring for the lowlys. > Today we have e-bikes and scooters, so hilly terrain is not a problem anymore ebikes average at $100pm. I’m sure you will contradict me with lowballing, but there are also people for whom it’s much more expensive. And if you live with normal people, there are no bikes that you can keep secure at home or at work - we’re not all bourgeois with safe garages.

haspok 3y ago
> If you compare train on a train-direct path... That's why I specifically took an example of my then-commute, which consisted of 15mins to the train station, 25mins train ride, then 10mins to workplace. I wouldn't exactly call that "train-direct". The UK doesn't exactly have "suburbia" quite like the US, although there are definitely remote places without good public transport, distances are not beyond practical for non-driving. Another prominent UK feature is the "terraced house", with a small backyard patio, usually with a small shed. This is typical for a low-wage family, or in the towns even for wealthier people. Or you would be living in a semi-detached house, probably with a small garden. Storing a bike or two is mostly a non-issue.

phero_cnstrcts 3y ago

>still way too cheap Said no sane person ever.

bogle 3y ago
Why the UK Government has frozen fuel duty. Again. https://www.lse.ac.uk/granthaminstitute/news/why-the-uk-government-has-frozen-fuel-duty-again/ https://www.lse.ac.uk/granthaminstitute/news/why-the-uk-gove... The ruling Conservative Party are buying votes at the cost of the environment. It harms tax revenue, too, which should be put towards improving travel options.
haspok 3y ago
For a thousand pounds you can buy a small used car, tax it, insure it and drive it around for a bit. Meanwhile an average e-bike costs more than that. Does that sound sane to you?
- didntcheck 3y ago
  So e-bikes are too expensive. I don't see why we should artificially make cars more expensive in response

eesmith 3y ago

It seems residents in the area doesn't have much of an alternative. The train service isn't running: > I'm travelling up the Rhondda Fawr valley from Pontypridd up to Treherbert - which is without its train line to Cardiff which is shut until the new year Google Maps says there's half-hourly bus service from Tonypandy to Cardiff, but it takes 75 minutes, vs. 40 minutes by car. It says the bike route is about 100 minutes.

haspok 3y ago
> which is shut until the new year Btw. is it a coincidence that they chose to write about this exact location, at this exact point in time (when there is no alternative way of transport)? (rhetorical question)

d1sxeyes 3y ago

I'm not that surprised I'm afraid. I am familiar with South Wales more than the rest of the country, but for many, many people, they live in small, former mining villages. If they're lucky, there's a bus or two every hour going to the nearest big city. If you work outside the city, or in a different city, your commute skyrockets. Additionally, many of these small villages only have very basic Nisa Today type newsagents/mini-markets, and the supermarkets are optimised for car travel, not bus (and certainly not scooter). It's also a pretty deprived area, and a car, while expensive, is essentially a necessity. An e-bike would be an additional cost on top of the car. There are also considerations around the weather, etc.

rich_sasha 3y ago
> There are also considerations around the weather, etc. That's quite an understatement. Wales is a very wet and windy country.

Gud 3y ago

It’s not just that driving is too cheap, but the other options sucks. Whoever is designing the inner cities clearly don’t give a shit about pedestrians. A city should be designed for pedestrians first but in the UK, the crosswalks aren’t even clearly marked!

CalRobert 3y ago
A city truly designed for pedestrians would let you cross the street safely anywhere you like, not just at designated crosswalks.
- Gud 3y ago
  Exactly, which is the case in many European cities. For example, Antwerp, Zürich, Stockholm, all cities where you can feel a lot safer crossing the streets(“jaywalking“) than in any big city in the UK I’ve visited

lamontcg 3y ago

> I find it amusing how they did not interview one single person who thought he or she might just choose a different way of transportation, dropping speed limits doesn't do that. if you want netherlands, you need to invest in biking infrastructure and traffic calming. you can't just drop the speed limits and try to declare victory. > Today we have e-bikes and scooters, so hilly terrain is not a problem anymore. distracted drivers are still a problem. they dropped the speed limits to 25mph where i live and while i could buy an e-bike, i don't feel like getting myself killed for a principle, so i just drive 15 mph over the limit like literally everyone else.

ahahahahah 3y ago
> > I find it amusing how they did not interview one single person who thought he or she might just choose a different way of transportation, > dropping speed limits doesn't do that. Why just make shit up? Let's look at real data. In edinburgh, after speed limits were reduced, # of people biking increased significantly. https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/32217/evaluation-of-the-20mph-speed-limit-roll-out-three-years-post-implementation https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/32217/evaluation... In Belfast, after speed limits were reduced, traffic volume decreased significantly: https://jech.bmj.com/content/77/1/17 https://jech.bmj.com/content/77/1/17
- lamontcg 3y ago
  Just looking at the Edinburgh study it is almost comically bad: > 4.5 ‘Before’ and ‘after’ surveys were also carried out at a selection of locations where the 30mph speed limit was retained. At these locations, average ‘after’ speeds in 2021 fell by 2.32mph compared with average ‘before’ speeds in 2016. This is a further decrease of 1.83mph since average ‘after’ speeds were recorded in 2019. Although many factors may have influenced this speed reduction, it could in part be attributed to the effect of speed reductions on surrounding streets, with drivers slowing their driving behaviour throughout Edinburgh. So the "control" streets also saw a decline in average speed, and the conclusion wasn't that the primary effect was due to increasing congestion over time, but instead clearly the speed limits just magically work everywhere. And the highest average speed on these streets was 32 mph to start with, before setting the speed limits. The roads already were doing the work there. That doesn't compare with the ~40 mph stroads we have around here that they've slapped a 25 mph sign onto and called it a day.