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UK over the years has been destroying something immensely valuable that you can't get back quickly. For example, there are barely any speed cameras on local roa

by Paul_S 3y ago

UK over the years has been destroying something immensely valuable that you can't get back quickly. For example, there are barely any speed cameras on local roads in the UK (compared to other European countries) and yet almost everyone drives under the limit. It's the same with police not needing guns. I think people just don't understand how valuable (and unusual) this is. Edit: As has been pointed out to me, there are a lot of speed cameras in the UK, but half of them are in the London area where I don't drive (and the rest are mostly motorways) which is why I had that impression.

yellow_lead 3y ago
Can you elaborate how this is being destroyed? Not sure if you mean Brexit, other law changes, or this one in particular.
- ovi256 3y ago
  Policing by consensus. People respected the rules because they agreed with the rules and trusted the rulemakers. Now the trust in rulemakers is gone and some people disagree with some rules. I wonder what the impact of this policing by consensus was. Did the UK spend a lower percentage of GDP on policing than peer nations ? I don't think they have lower crime numbers. Surely not in London.
  - Paul_S 3y ago
    That's exactly what I meant. If people agree to the rules you don't need to waste resources policing them.
gumballindie 3y ago
Thats factually incorrect. The uk has the third largest number of speed cameras in europe, below only russia and italy. It’s quite annoying having cameras everywhere frankly.
- beardyw 3y ago
  > It’s quite annoying having cameras everywhere frankly. Why?
  - bogle 3y ago
    I suspect they mean the number of CCTV cameras in the UK rather than road safety cameras specifically. If you are concerned about the erosion of privacy in public spaces then that would be a valid point.
    - beardyw 3y ago
      > british society is in fact quite “uncivilised Sadly there is a significant part that is.
  - simonbarker87 3y ago
    Because drivers should be trusted to drive to the conditions. Those that speed stupidly will do so regardless of cameras (they will just slow down when they see one which actually makes things more dangerous) and those that drive to the conditions will speed when they believe it’s safe to do so and won’t speed when it’s not safe to do so, which means cameras are actually making driving less safe because they need to drop down for 400m and then speed up again. Every speed limit purist reply to this argument is that without cameras everyone would be going mad at 120mph no matter what. This just isn’t true and our country roads being mostly 60 mph is proof of this. 60mph is too fast for many of those country roads, everyone knows this and so most will drive 50/40/30 etc depending on the conditions.
    - gumballindie 3y ago
      I’d say considering the state of many roads speeding wont be an issue anyway. My issue is with the government being literarily _everywhere_ to the point where it’s creepy. It really only shows that either the british society is in fact quite “uncivilised” and requires massive amounts of policing in order to “behave” or that the frog is getting boiled for something bigger.
isoprophlex 3y ago
What?! I experienced this vastly differently. I drove from Dover to Lands' End and back this year, and the route was absolutely riddled with speed cams, compared to the Netherlands.
- Paul_S 3y ago
  I should clarify, there are cameras on motorways but hardly any on local roads where the 20 speed limit is used. Also, all cameras are signposted and there are obvious lines on the road so you can see exactly where the measurement is taken.
  - isoprophlex 3y ago
    Ah right. Yeah we had a good laugh about that, why put up so many if you make it so easy to spot them?!
    - pjc50 3y ago
      That's a "consent of the governed" thing; they're unpopular enough already, but making them sneaky, hiding them round corners, etc. was even more unpopular, so in a spirit of British fair play they are fully visible and if you get caught it's your own fault for not paying attention.
    - anonymous_sorry 3y ago
      Politics basically. When they were first being installed, drivers got all whiny and said it wasn't fair. They were being tricked and local authorities were using them to raise cash rather than enforce speed limits. Cameras were placed where speeding was very common, and councils were supposedly hiding them behind foliage to catch as many people as possible. If they were really about stopping speeding, shouldn't they be visible? Basically, drivers didn't want to have to obey the speed limit all the time (God forbid!). But they could just about put up with being forced to obey the limit where it was particularly dangerous. So to mollify the car lobby a rule was introduced that the cameras had to be highly visible.
  - 3y ago
amanzi 3y ago
The UK has tons of speed cameras and people certainly don't drive under the limit due to free will. Most GPS units display where the speed cameras are located so UK drivers know where to speed and where not to.
sambeau 3y ago
> there are barely any speed cameras in the UK (compared to other European countries) and yet almost everyone drives under the limit As a UK resident who spends a lot of time in France and Italy this statement really surprised me, and really isn't my experience. I had to read it twice as I assumed you meant the opposite I recently drove from Brighton to Glasgow vis Nottingham. I'd easily passed through 10 before I reached the M25 south of London, including one on the street I lived on. The M25 itself easily had 10 possibly way more. The M1 must have had another 10 or so. I passed through about 5 or so driving through Nottingham. Similarly there about 5 before I hit the A1 which now has dozens. There were 3 or 4 on the A66 and even the M74 and M8 have cameras now. I keep Apple Maps on the whole journey even though I don't need it, specifically to beep and warn me when I'm approaching one. I can't recall seeing cameras in France, but I'm sure they are there somewhere, plus I rarely drive through the large cities. I've never seen one in Italy, but maybe I don't know what they look like and I tend to drive the same routes. I have seen the police at the side of the road with a handheld radar. Are we maybe driving different parts of Europe? A quick check (after writing most of this) gave me this graph which, as a non-member, I can't see the sources for, but looks believable. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1201490/speed-cameras-permanent-traffic-countries-europe/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1201490/speed-cameras-pe... Which, ignoring Russia, has Italy #1 and the UK #2. So, clearly, I'm not driving the parts of Italy with lots of cameras, but the UK has more cameras than most European countries. > yet almost everyone drives under the limit Is also something I haven't observed. We have 'boy racers' shooting up and down our street, the M25 has giant expensive cars aggressively pulling up behind you and flashing their lights and driving through speed camera without a care (or weaving through traffic by undertaking). The right-hand lane of most motorways is people driving 90-100 mph when they can. My experience is that it's congestion, not British good manners that keep people under the speed limit. On the M11 which, last I checked, was still camera free, the fast lane was people driving at 100mph. The 6 lanes on the A1(M) between Huntington and Peterborough was even faster. I recently got an early-morning Taxi from Brighton to Heathrow, and the taxi driver drove at 125mph between cameras.
- Paul_S 3y ago
  Yes, plenty of cameras on motorways. I set my cruise control on motorways and ignore them so maybe that's why it didn't spring to mind. But the article is about local roads and at least where I drive I never see any. I drive in Europe occasionally and I think they have more cameras on local roads but again, it's my experience and not stats. I don't drive around London so maybe my experience is not representative. I have only seen a mobile speed camera van once in my life. Even that was signposted. If you want to avoid tickets and keep speeding it's super easy. I don't see people speeding. Again, I imagine it might be different around London but isn't everything different over there?

by Paul_S 3y ago

yellow_lead 3y ago

Can you elaborate how this is being destroyed? Not sure if you mean Brexit, other law changes, or this one in particular.

ovi256 3y ago
Policing by consensus. People respected the rules because they agreed with the rules and trusted the rulemakers. Now the trust in rulemakers is gone and some people disagree with some rules. I wonder what the impact of this policing by consensus was. Did the UK spend a lower percentage of GDP on policing than peer nations ? I don't think they have lower crime numbers. Surely not in London.
- Paul_S 3y ago
  That's exactly what I meant. If people agree to the rules you don't need to waste resources policing them.

gumballindie 3y ago

Thats factually incorrect. The uk has the third largest number of speed cameras in europe, below only russia and italy. It’s quite annoying having cameras everywhere frankly.

beardyw 3y ago
> It’s quite annoying having cameras everywhere frankly. Why?
- bogle 3y ago
  I suspect they mean the number of CCTV cameras in the UK rather than road safety cameras specifically. If you are concerned about the erosion of privacy in public spaces then that would be a valid point.
  - beardyw 3y ago
    > british society is in fact quite “uncivilised Sadly there is a significant part that is.
- simonbarker87 3y ago
  Because drivers should be trusted to drive to the conditions. Those that speed stupidly will do so regardless of cameras (they will just slow down when they see one which actually makes things more dangerous) and those that drive to the conditions will speed when they believe it’s safe to do so and won’t speed when it’s not safe to do so, which means cameras are actually making driving less safe because they need to drop down for 400m and then speed up again. Every speed limit purist reply to this argument is that without cameras everyone would be going mad at 120mph no matter what. This just isn’t true and our country roads being mostly 60 mph is proof of this. 60mph is too fast for many of those country roads, everyone knows this and so most will drive 50/40/30 etc depending on the conditions.
  - gumballindie 3y ago
    I’d say considering the state of many roads speeding wont be an issue anyway. My issue is with the government being literarily _everywhere_ to the point where it’s creepy. It really only shows that either the british society is in fact quite “uncivilised” and requires massive amounts of policing in order to “behave” or that the frog is getting boiled for something bigger.

isoprophlex 3y ago

What?! I experienced this vastly differently. I drove from Dover to Lands' End and back this year, and the route was absolutely riddled with speed cams, compared to the Netherlands.

Paul_S 3y ago
I should clarify, there are cameras on motorways but hardly any on local roads where the 20 speed limit is used. Also, all cameras are signposted and there are obvious lines on the road so you can see exactly where the measurement is taken.
- isoprophlex 3y ago
  Ah right. Yeah we had a good laugh about that, why put up so many if you make it so easy to spot them?!
  - pjc50 3y ago
    That's a "consent of the governed" thing; they're unpopular enough already, but making them sneaky, hiding them round corners, etc. was even more unpopular, so in a spirit of British fair play they are fully visible and if you get caught it's your own fault for not paying attention.
  - anonymous_sorry 3y ago
    Politics basically. When they were first being installed, drivers got all whiny and said it wasn't fair. They were being tricked and local authorities were using them to raise cash rather than enforce speed limits. Cameras were placed where speeding was very common, and councils were supposedly hiding them behind foliage to catch as many people as possible. If they were really about stopping speeding, shouldn't they be visible? Basically, drivers didn't want to have to obey the speed limit all the time (God forbid!). But they could just about put up with being forced to obey the limit where it was particularly dangerous. So to mollify the car lobby a rule was introduced that the cameras had to be highly visible.
- 3y ago

amanzi 3y ago

The UK has tons of speed cameras and people certainly don't drive under the limit due to free will. Most GPS units display where the speed cameras are located so UK drivers know where to speed and where not to.

sambeau 3y ago

> there are barely any speed cameras in the UK (compared to other European countries) and yet almost everyone drives under the limit As a UK resident who spends a lot of time in France and Italy this statement really surprised me, and really isn't my experience. I had to read it twice as I assumed you meant the opposite I recently drove from Brighton to Glasgow vis Nottingham. I'd easily passed through 10 before I reached the M25 south of London, including one on the street I lived on. The M25 itself easily had 10 possibly way more. The M1 must have had another 10 or so. I passed through about 5 or so driving through Nottingham. Similarly there about 5 before I hit the A1 which now has dozens. There were 3 or 4 on the A66 and even the M74 and M8 have cameras now. I keep Apple Maps on the whole journey even though I don't need it, specifically to beep and warn me when I'm approaching one. I can't recall seeing cameras in France, but I'm sure they are there somewhere, plus I rarely drive through the large cities. I've never seen one in Italy, but maybe I don't know what they look like and I tend to drive the same routes. I have seen the police at the side of the road with a handheld radar. Are we maybe driving different parts of Europe? A quick check (after writing most of this) gave me this graph which, as a non-member, I can't see the sources for, but looks believable. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1201490/speed-cameras-permanent-traffic-countries-europe/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1201490/speed-cameras-pe... Which, ignoring Russia, has Italy #1 and the UK #2. So, clearly, I'm not driving the parts of Italy with lots of cameras, but the UK has more cameras than most European countries. > yet almost everyone drives under the limit Is also something I haven't observed. We have 'boy racers' shooting up and down our street, the M25 has giant expensive cars aggressively pulling up behind you and flashing their lights and driving through speed camera without a care (or weaving through traffic by undertaking). The right-hand lane of most motorways is people driving 90-100 mph when they can. My experience is that it's congestion, not British good manners that keep people under the speed limit. On the M11 which, last I checked, was still camera free, the fast lane was people driving at 100mph. The 6 lanes on the A1(M) between Huntington and Peterborough was even faster. I recently got an early-morning Taxi from Brighton to Heathrow, and the taxi driver drove at 125mph between cameras.

Paul_S 3y ago
Yes, plenty of cameras on motorways. I set my cruise control on motorways and ignore them so maybe that's why it didn't spring to mind. But the article is about local roads and at least where I drive I never see any. I drive in Europe occasionally and I think they have more cameras on local roads but again, it's my experience and not stats. I don't drive around London so maybe my experience is not representative. I have only seen a mobile speed camera van once in my life. Even that was signposted. If you want to avoid tickets and keep speeding it's super easy. I don't see people speeding. Again, I imagine it might be different around London but isn't everything different over there?