3 ms·

That's the Sapir-Worth hypothesis. It's decidedly pre-Chomsky, and as Pinker calls it, it is both the most well known and accepted linguistic hypothesis and al

That's the Sapir-Worth hypothesis. It's decidedly pre-Chomsky, and as Pinker calls it, it is both the most well known and accepted linguistic hypothesis and also almost certainly completely wrong.

numpad0 3y ago
It’s something you just know if you’re bilingual or more. It would sound threatening to monolingual speakers but this is just how it works. Languages are our thought construction algorithms. It’s not a “Turing Completeness isn’t real” hypothesis, more like just “Rust != C”. I think this is where software nerd types predict wrong, as it sounds as if it is trying to disprove TC, which shall be futile attempt. It’s not(the former one at least).
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > I think this is where software nerd types predict wrong Pinker isn't a software nerd, he's an evolutionary psychologist and psycholinguist.
  - himinlomax 3y ago
    He's indeed precisely one of the most qualified person around to opine on this subject.
    - otabdeveloper4 3y ago
      "Evolutionary psychology" is not a real discipline. It's like calling yourself a "karmic surgeon" or whatever.
- avgcorrection 3y ago
  > It’s something you just know if you’re bilingual or more. Not in my experience.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    It is obvious. Most words in different languages aren't 100% equivalent - they have large or small differences in sets of connotations. Same is true for phrases and sentences. When you translate a thought expressed in one language to another, you may get the primary, leading-order meanings across 100% right, but you'll still lose some lower-order connotations. For a more direct analogy, I'd compare this to how LLMs process tokens, but I feel most of the community is not ready for it yet, as we're still stuck debating the validity of this comparison in the other direction...
    - avgcorrection 3y ago
      > It is obvious. Most words in different languages aren't 100% equivalent - they have large or small differences in sets of connotations. This is true. Which is why idioms and phrases can be hard to translate. But we're talking about Sapir-Worth hypothesis which is a much stronger claim. I have never experienced that I need to think in a specific language in order to do something better (well, I only have two choices).
      - TeMPOraL 3y ago
        > I have never experienced that I need to think in a specific language in order to do something better (well, I only have two choices). I found that for me, certain thoughts "flow better" in one language, and others in another. And this makes sense, because thinking is, in large part, exploring the web of associations and connotations, going down the gradient of what "feels right"[0] - and since those annotations and connotations have different structures in different languages, so will the thoughts drift in different directions, take different paths, even if they end up in the same place. -- [0] - The obvious parallels between one's inner voice and the workings of an LLM are left as an exercise to the reader.
        avgcorrection 3y ago
        > I found that for me, certain thoughts "flow better" in one language, and others in another. For you. So not an absolute truth as in “it is obvious”. > The obvious parallels between one's inner voice and the workings of an LLM are left as an exercise to the reader. Another obvious? Hmm. Perhaps obvious to the techno-animists.
otabdeveloper4 3y ago
Both Chomsky and Pinker have been decidedly debunked.

That's the Sapir-Worth hypothesis. It's decidedly pre-Chomsky, and as Pinker calls it, it is both the most well known and accepted linguistic hypothesis and also almost certainly completely wrong.

numpad0 3y ago

It’s something you just know if you’re bilingual or more. It would sound threatening to monolingual speakers but this is just how it works. Languages are our thought construction algorithms. It’s not a “Turing Completeness isn’t real” hypothesis, more like just “Rust != C”. I think this is where software nerd types predict wrong, as it sounds as if it is trying to disprove TC, which shall be futile attempt. It’s not(the former one at least).

dragonwriter 3y ago
> I think this is where software nerd types predict wrong Pinker isn't a software nerd, he's an evolutionary psychologist and psycholinguist.
- himinlomax 3y ago
  He's indeed precisely one of the most qualified person around to opine on this subject.
  - otabdeveloper4 3y ago
    "Evolutionary psychology" is not a real discipline. It's like calling yourself a "karmic surgeon" or whatever.
avgcorrection 3y ago
> It’s something you just know if you’re bilingual or more. Not in my experience.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  It is obvious. Most words in different languages aren't 100% equivalent - they have large or small differences in sets of connotations. Same is true for phrases and sentences. When you translate a thought expressed in one language to another, you may get the primary, leading-order meanings across 100% right, but you'll still lose some lower-order connotations. For a more direct analogy, I'd compare this to how LLMs process tokens, but I feel most of the community is not ready for it yet, as we're still stuck debating the validity of this comparison in the other direction...
  - avgcorrection 3y ago
    > It is obvious. Most words in different languages aren't 100% equivalent - they have large or small differences in sets of connotations. This is true. Which is why idioms and phrases can be hard to translate. But we're talking about Sapir-Worth hypothesis which is a much stronger claim. I have never experienced that I need to think in a specific language in order to do something better (well, I only have two choices).
    - TeMPOraL 3y ago
      > I have never experienced that I need to think in a specific language in order to do something better (well, I only have two choices). I found that for me, certain thoughts "flow better" in one language, and others in another. And this makes sense, because thinking is, in large part, exploring the web of associations and connotations, going down the gradient of what "feels right"[0] - and since those annotations and connotations have different structures in different languages, so will the thoughts drift in different directions, take different paths, even if they end up in the same place. -- [0] - The obvious parallels between one's inner voice and the workings of an LLM are left as an exercise to the reader.
      - avgcorrection 3y ago
        > I found that for me, certain thoughts "flow better" in one language, and others in another. For you. So not an absolute truth as in “it is obvious”. > The obvious parallels between one's inner voice and the workings of an LLM are left as an exercise to the reader. Another obvious? Hmm. Perhaps obvious to the techno-animists.

otabdeveloper4 3y ago

Both Chomsky and Pinker have been decidedly debunked.