4 ms·

Sadly the people they confront in those european countries are significantly less armed than your average american.

reaperman 3y ago
To be pedantic, the median American does not own a firearm. There's a steel-manned version of your point which is valid, however.
- sethammons 3y ago
  44% of households have a firearm. That is pretty close to median and will probably have regional distribution differences. https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own...
  - reaperman 3y ago
    Literally the first sentence of your article: “32% of U.S. adults say they personally own a gun”. I agree that there’s a steel-manned version of the original statement which is valid. You’re definitely getting a lot closer to it. I mean we can keep splitting hairs (I own guns, but only for sport not defense, I never carry, and they're stored field stripped with uppers and lowers in two separate safes and all ammunition in a third safe in a separate room). But of course after additional back-forth we’ll reach a point where we all eventually mostly agree with the intended sentiment of the GP’s comment. I just thought it was important to clarify to the audience that the “average” american is not, in fact, armed with a firearm.
    - sethammons 3y ago
      Not sure your point. The very first sentence says both: > Thirty-two percent of U.S. adults say they personally own a gun, while a larger percentage, 44%, report living in a gun household If my wife owns a gun and I "don't," we both still have access to firearms. 44% of households have a similar dynamic. The American population is more armed than Europe. And it is close to half the population. I'm not making a value judgement. I own guns. Multiple of them. I guess I'm not sure what your point was. Mine is saying that nearly half of all households have a firearm.
      - reaperman 3y ago
        The comment we are responding to: > Sadly the people they confront in those european countries are significantly less armed than your average american. Assuming that some reasonable percentage of "confrontations" occur outside the home, if you're being confronted while commuting to work, it's not always relevant that your wife owns a gun. It only matters whether you personally own & carry. > Not sure your point. > I guess I'm not sure what your point was. I've honestly been doing a pretty solid job being intentional and respectful to all views here. I don't think it's much intellectual work to try to do the best you can at imagining some reasonable point that can be made with the "32%" statistic and acknowledging some of those likely "points" in your post. It would feel much less dismissive, and show that you at least tried to figure out some points that I might be making while maybe still asking for clarification or confirmation. It demonstrates intellectual honesty.
- sleepybrett 3y ago
  Not about median. About absolute probability. In europe whats the probability as a policeman to run into someone who is armed with a handgun. I imagine it's very low. In american is still might be under 50% but even if it's 15-25% that's a lot of cops that are 'caught bringing pepper spray to a gunfight'.
  - buttercraft 3y ago
    Do you seriously think that 25% of the people police interact with in the US are armed? Really?
    - reaperman 3y ago
      The actual percentage doesnt really matter for a steel-manned version of then original statement: > Sadly the people they confront in those european countries are significantly less armed than your average american. Basically, we can all readily accept that police are definitely more likely to interact with an armed citizen in the USA vs. the EU.
bratwurst3000 3y ago
Yeah but most situations where cops are called don’t need guns but still they are trained to use them and more or less nothing else. Yea the should wear guns. But wearing gun is not the solution to most problem they need more of a skillset
- mcny 3y ago
  I sincerely believe that the police officers who carry a gun must demonstrate fitness -- physical, mental, psychologically, target practice, gun safety, etc at least once a month from an independent third party. There is no way all these police officers are all fit to carry a gun.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    > I sincerely believe that the police officers who carry a gun must demonstrate fitness -- physical, mental, psychologically, target practice, gun safety, etc at least once a month from an independent third party. I work for a Fire Department. Have seen first-hand the vehement push back both fire and police unions have had when departments/cities have suggested that the CPAT (candidate physical ability test) used at hiring time become an annual requirement. I know of two firefighters who were rejected from multiple police departments, with at least one being explicitly because they failed the psych assessment...

To be pedantic, the median American does not own a firearm. There's a steel-manned version of your point which is valid, however.

sethammons 3y ago
44% of households have a firearm. That is pretty close to median and will probably have regional distribution differences. https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own...
- reaperman 3y ago
  Literally the first sentence of your article: “32% of U.S. adults say they personally own a gun”. I agree that there’s a steel-manned version of the original statement which is valid. You’re definitely getting a lot closer to it. I mean we can keep splitting hairs (I own guns, but only for sport not defense, I never carry, and they're stored field stripped with uppers and lowers in two separate safes and all ammunition in a third safe in a separate room). But of course after additional back-forth we’ll reach a point where we all eventually mostly agree with the intended sentiment of the GP’s comment. I just thought it was important to clarify to the audience that the “average” american is not, in fact, armed with a firearm.
  - sethammons 3y ago
    Not sure your point. The very first sentence says both: > Thirty-two percent of U.S. adults say they personally own a gun, while a larger percentage, 44%, report living in a gun household If my wife owns a gun and I "don't," we both still have access to firearms. 44% of households have a similar dynamic. The American population is more armed than Europe. And it is close to half the population. I'm not making a value judgement. I own guns. Multiple of them. I guess I'm not sure what your point was. Mine is saying that nearly half of all households have a firearm.
    - reaperman 3y ago
      The comment we are responding to: > Sadly the people they confront in those european countries are significantly less armed than your average american. Assuming that some reasonable percentage of "confrontations" occur outside the home, if you're being confronted while commuting to work, it's not always relevant that your wife owns a gun. It only matters whether you personally own & carry. > Not sure your point. > I guess I'm not sure what your point was. I've honestly been doing a pretty solid job being intentional and respectful to all views here. I don't think it's much intellectual work to try to do the best you can at imagining some reasonable point that can be made with the "32%" statistic and acknowledging some of those likely "points" in your post. It would feel much less dismissive, and show that you at least tried to figure out some points that I might be making while maybe still asking for clarification or confirmation. It demonstrates intellectual honesty.
sleepybrett 3y ago
Not about median. About absolute probability. In europe whats the probability as a policeman to run into someone who is armed with a handgun. I imagine it's very low. In american is still might be under 50% but even if it's 15-25% that's a lot of cops that are 'caught bringing pepper spray to a gunfight'.
- buttercraft 3y ago
  Do you seriously think that 25% of the people police interact with in the US are armed? Really?
  - reaperman 3y ago
    The actual percentage doesnt really matter for a steel-manned version of then original statement: > Sadly the people they confront in those european countries are significantly less armed than your average american. Basically, we can all readily accept that police are definitely more likely to interact with an armed citizen in the USA vs. the EU.

bratwurst3000 3y ago

Yeah but most situations where cops are called don’t need guns but still they are trained to use them and more or less nothing else. Yea the should wear guns. But wearing gun is not the solution to most problem they need more of a skillset

mcny 3y ago
I sincerely believe that the police officers who carry a gun must demonstrate fitness -- physical, mental, psychologically, target practice, gun safety, etc at least once a month from an independent third party. There is no way all these police officers are all fit to carry a gun.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  > I sincerely believe that the police officers who carry a gun must demonstrate fitness -- physical, mental, psychologically, target practice, gun safety, etc at least once a month from an independent third party. I work for a Fire Department. Have seen first-hand the vehement push back both fire and police unions have had when departments/cities have suggested that the CPAT (candidate physical ability test) used at hiring time become an annual requirement. I know of two firefighters who were rejected from multiple police departments, with at least one being explicitly because they failed the psych assessment...