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I think many of the paradoxes of prayer are most easily comprehended if we remember that God is called our Father, and we are called his children. How would th

by Dove 3y ago

I think many of the paradoxes of prayer are most easily comprehended if we remember that God is called our Father, and we are called his children. How would the situation in question work out, between a father and a child? Suppose there are three brothers - Peter, James, and John. Suppose Peter is wondering if it ever matters whether he asks his dad for anything. Perhaps he thinks his dad is so powerful and so wise that he will always do the right thing and doesn't need Peter's advice. Or perhaps he thinks his father is so distant and uncaring that asking him for help is useless. So Peter decides, as an experiment, every day to ask his dad to do something nice for James, and never asks him to do anything for John. What will happen? It entirely depends on the relationship between Peter and his dad! But at a minimum, it seems likely that Peter's dad would resist his son's attempt to control him, and would take a dim view of Peter's insincere requests and desire to play with his brother's fates. Is there any point in children asking their parents for things? There is - if Peter is genuinely worried about a problem James is having and brings it to his father's attention, action is all but guaranteed - especially if they are close. There's a world of difference between requests based on the pre-existing relationship and the feeling behind the request. God is a person. He knows when you're running a study. He knows when you're genuinely concerned. He knows you far more thoroughly than you know yourself, and responds - not the way a force under your control would, but the way a person would. As a bonus thought, I have a young son who likes to take trips outside. It is his favorite thing. I know this. At any moment of the day, I know he would probably like me to take him outside just then. Sometimes I do, sometimes I am doing other things. I am infinitely wiser than my (in this case, two year old) son when it comes to prioritizing going outside vs. doing other things, and I really do try to get him as much outside time as I can, in general. And yet! In spite of all of that! It is perfectly true that he frequently causes me to take him outside by asking. Despite all logic to the contrary, prayer can work - the same way, for the same reason. There is something in the asking itself that changes the context and the priorities. Incredibly counterintuitive things can happen when people are involved.

xyzelement 3y ago
Wonderful analogy, thank you.
burkaman 3y ago
There seems to be an underlying assumption that when your god knows you're running a prayer experiment, they'll selectively ignore the prayers in order to make the experiment fail and make themselves appear nonexistent. Why? I understand that god is unknowable, but what I mean is, why do you believe that? Is there some theological reason? Or do you just assume it must be true because otherwise the experiments would work? I appreciated your analogy, but I don't believe it answers this question. No father would ignore their child's requests specifically to make them believe they don't have a father.
- xyzelement 3y ago
  This is a great question and I am going to fall short of doing it justice in this brief response, but I'll try. This is the Jewish perspective: If you were really aware of G-d, if you could objectively sense his presence, then you would not be able to feel your own presence. As an analogy, imagine a really advanced AI simulation running in a machine. If we wanted to create a thing that felt its own existence and free will, it must have an experience that's something other than "oh I am just electrons in these circuits". Although the simulation's entire existence is in this computer that's much greater than it, for it to be "a thing" it must be somehow less than aware. Similarly, if we really felt G-d, our own existence would pale in comparison and we'd stop perceiving ourselves. In your analogy with the father, it's very obvious that the father and son are distinct. Like I said, I know I am not doing this justice but that's the rough outline.

by Dove 3y ago

xyzelement 3y ago

Wonderful analogy, thank you.

burkaman 3y ago

There seems to be an underlying assumption that when your god knows you're running a prayer experiment, they'll selectively ignore the prayers in order to make the experiment fail and make themselves appear nonexistent. Why? I understand that god is unknowable, but what I mean is, why do you believe that? Is there some theological reason? Or do you just assume it must be true because otherwise the experiments would work? I appreciated your analogy, but I don't believe it answers this question. No father would ignore their child's requests specifically to make them believe they don't have a father.

xyzelement 3y ago
This is a great question and I am going to fall short of doing it justice in this brief response, but I'll try. This is the Jewish perspective: If you were really aware of G-d, if you could objectively sense his presence, then you would not be able to feel your own presence. As an analogy, imagine a really advanced AI simulation running in a machine. If we wanted to create a thing that felt its own existence and free will, it must have an experience that's something other than "oh I am just electrons in these circuits". Although the simulation's entire existence is in this computer that's much greater than it, for it to be "a thing" it must be somehow less than aware. Similarly, if we really felt G-d, our own existence would pale in comparison and we'd stop perceiving ourselves. In your analogy with the father, it's very obvious that the father and son are distinct. Like I said, I know I am not doing this justice but that's the rough outline.