4 ms·

Are they more expensive than motors? Maybe ford has good economies at scale already to make it up.

csours 3y ago
For now, yes, a bit more.
bagels 3y ago
Yes, they are more expensive than motors. The F-150 Lightning has ~100kWh of capacity, and last time I looked it up, batteries cost the manufacturer ~$140/kWh, so, $14,000 in batteries. I don't know what the motor costs, but if they're selling for $35k, I can't imagine the motor costs $14,000. Probably a lot less than this.
- throwaway894345 3y ago
  Where did you find $14K? I'm seeing $35K for a replacement--is Ford really marking these up $20K / 250%?
  - bagels 3y ago
    I was using the most aggressive estimates of how much it costs manufacturers to buy batteries on a per kwh basis. Retail replacement cost for the battery is not anywhere near the cost to manufacture the battery.
  - NikolaNovak 3y ago
    It is my understanding that 250% is lower than normal markup on automotive service parts bought from a. dealership. Economy of cars is weird. As a manufacturer You sell today for a single price. But you have to account for free, expensive warranty work for many years. And recalls. And you have to manufacture, stock, and make available random parts in somewhat predictable but somewhat not quantities for decades. So a gadget that may have cost 50c to produce technically, will be priced at 8.99,for any of the above reasons - subsidize warranty costs, storage costs, etc. Basically, I wish most car parts had only 250% markup!
throwaway894345 3y ago
According to some rudimentary Google sleuthing, the battery alone costs about $35K which is about the starting cost of a new gasoline F-150. So yes, the battery alone (i.e., excluding electric motors) is much more expensive than an entire ICE drivetrain. It's essentially very difficult to make a cheaper electric pickup truck because batteries are expensive and you need to have a lot of battery capacity to move a big, boxy pickup truck ~300 miles on a single charge. If you trade off range, people won't buy it (it's already hard enough to persuade pickup truck owners to buy something that has very little towing range and for which there aren't good charging options for a truck with a trailer in tow) and there isn't a lot you can do to make up the range by lightening or streamlining the vehicle without increasing costs. Maybe economies of scale could help, but it's hard to imagine economies of scale without increased demand, which is hard to imagine without lower costs, etc.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  It's worth mentioning that electric vehicles in general have to contend with the Tyranny of the Rocket Equation[1][2], and something like an electric truck that demands bursts and even constant high power draws exacerbates the problem severely. The gist of the problems EVs face right now is that the energy density of batteries do not compete with fossil fuels. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsky_rocket_equation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsky_rocket_equation [2]: "In what has been called 'the tyranny of the rocket equation', there is a limit to the amount of payload that the rocket can carry, as higher amounts of propellant increment the overall weight, and thus also increase the fuel consumption."
  - bagels 3y ago
    The rocket equation is not directly applicable. An electric car still works if it has less capacity and lower energy density. It is just slower and or has a lower range. Rockets need to produce >1g of acceleration or they don't get to leave earth.
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      It is because an electric vehicle needs to move its own batteries as part of itself (obviously), but you also need more batteries to provide competitive driving range/power because the energy density is so low. Thus, you need to install more batteries to compensate for the increased workloads that a truck would forseeably experience, but you need more batteries to convey those batteries which requires bigger motors which requires more batteries and herein lies the Tyranny of the Rocket Equation. At some point you need a breakthrough in energy efficiency or energy storage density because you hit an upper practical limit on how much energy storage you can haul around. ICE cars and trucks must also technically contend with this, but in practice they do not because fossil fuels are so energy dense that we almost never meet that upper practical limit.
numpad0 3y ago
Isn't that precisely why brand establishment and range per dollar for EV from that brand seem to inversely correlate? i.e. Toyota < Nissan < GM < Ford < VW < Volvo < Tesla < Lucid. All those cars do 0-60s in 5s, differentiation is in range and newer brands always mysteriously do better in that column. Can't be just lower Cd or magic especially when Toyota has been shipping Prius since 1997.

For now, yes, a bit more.

Yes, they are more expensive than motors. The F-150 Lightning has ~100kWh of capacity, and last time I looked it up, batteries cost the manufacturer ~$140/kWh, so, $14,000 in batteries. I don't know what the motor costs, but if they're selling for $35k, I can't imagine the motor costs $14,000. Probably a lot less than this.

throwaway894345 3y ago
Where did you find $14K? I'm seeing $35K for a replacement--is Ford really marking these up $20K / 250%?
- bagels 3y ago
  I was using the most aggressive estimates of how much it costs manufacturers to buy batteries on a per kwh basis. Retail replacement cost for the battery is not anywhere near the cost to manufacture the battery.
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  It is my understanding that 250% is lower than normal markup on automotive service parts bought from a. dealership. Economy of cars is weird. As a manufacturer You sell today for a single price. But you have to account for free, expensive warranty work for many years. And recalls. And you have to manufacture, stock, and make available random parts in somewhat predictable but somewhat not quantities for decades. So a gadget that may have cost 50c to produce technically, will be priced at 8.99,for any of the above reasons - subsidize warranty costs, storage costs, etc. Basically, I wish most car parts had only 250% markup!

throwaway894345 3y ago

According to some rudimentary Google sleuthing, the battery alone costs about $35K which is about the starting cost of a new gasoline F-150. So yes, the battery alone (i.e., excluding electric motors) is much more expensive than an entire ICE drivetrain. It's essentially very difficult to make a cheaper electric pickup truck because batteries are expensive and you need to have a lot of battery capacity to move a big, boxy pickup truck ~300 miles on a single charge. If you trade off range, people won't buy it (it's already hard enough to persuade pickup truck owners to buy something that has very little towing range and for which there aren't good charging options for a truck with a trailer in tow) and there isn't a lot you can do to make up the range by lightening or streamlining the vehicle without increasing costs. Maybe economies of scale could help, but it's hard to imagine economies of scale without increased demand, which is hard to imagine without lower costs, etc.

Dalewyn 3y ago
It's worth mentioning that electric vehicles in general have to contend with the Tyranny of the Rocket Equation[1][2], and something like an electric truck that demands bursts and even constant high power draws exacerbates the problem severely. The gist of the problems EVs face right now is that the energy density of batteries do not compete with fossil fuels. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsky_rocket_equation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsky_rocket_equation [2]: "In what has been called 'the tyranny of the rocket equation', there is a limit to the amount of payload that the rocket can carry, as higher amounts of propellant increment the overall weight, and thus also increase the fuel consumption."
- bagels 3y ago
  The rocket equation is not directly applicable. An electric car still works if it has less capacity and lower energy density. It is just slower and or has a lower range. Rockets need to produce >1g of acceleration or they don't get to leave earth.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    It is because an electric vehicle needs to move its own batteries as part of itself (obviously), but you also need more batteries to provide competitive driving range/power because the energy density is so low. Thus, you need to install more batteries to compensate for the increased workloads that a truck would forseeably experience, but you need more batteries to convey those batteries which requires bigger motors which requires more batteries and herein lies the Tyranny of the Rocket Equation. At some point you need a breakthrough in energy efficiency or energy storage density because you hit an upper practical limit on how much energy storage you can haul around. ICE cars and trucks must also technically contend with this, but in practice they do not because fossil fuels are so energy dense that we almost never meet that upper practical limit.

numpad0 3y ago

Isn't that precisely why brand establishment and range per dollar for EV from that brand seem to inversely correlate? i.e. Toyota < Nissan < GM < Ford < VW < Volvo < Tesla < Lucid. All those cars do 0-60s in 5s, differentiation is in range and newer brands always mysteriously do better in that column. Can't be just lower Cd or magic especially when Toyota has been shipping Prius since 1997.