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When you talk about "moral" you're implying a personal system of beliefs. Putting your ideas of right and wrong aside for a moment, do you think your life would

When you talk about "moral" you're implying a personal system of beliefs. Putting your ideas of right and wrong aside for a moment, do you think your life would be improved if there was less crime, fewer homeless, safer neighborhoods, etc? The idea of supporting poor people by those of us with a little more money is not only advocated by most major religions, it's actually an effective strategy for improving the general quality of life. If there are fewer desperate people in the world, who knows in what ways things might improve?

aristofun 3y ago
> your life would be improved if there was less crime, fewer homeless, safer neighborhoods, etc Where is the evidence for that? US to my knowledge is the world leader in both state and private donations and various support programs value (per capita). At the same time crime rates look much worse than in many other poorer countries. I cannot imagine how can one even measure any meaningful correlation and isolate signal from the noise of thousands of other factors entangled in any society. As far as I know major religions advocate for donations as being essentially a voluntary act. Which is important, because it makes me (as a moral agent) free to choose who and how I prefer to support based on my own perceptions of better good and prefer people really in need to lazy bums gaming the system.
- allears 3y ago
  The US is well known for having the worst social safety net of any advanced country. Where are your statistics showing that the US is a leader in supporting the poor? If we took better care of those less fortunate, it seems obvious to me that they would commit fewer crimes, require less resources of policing and punishment, and people would be less afraid to walk the streets. True, there is a lot of poverty and crime in the US now. Do you think more police, more prisons is the best solution? And anyway, if you don't want to help other people, I question your sense of "morals." It seems to me that helping to care for your fellow man is one of the basic tenets of morality.
  - aristofun 3y ago
    You missing my point and moving focus away from the specific question I'm trying to ask. Instead you question my moral compass. Can you please stay on track for a while? Here is one of many stats you can find about US being a leader in charity and donations https://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/almanac/statistics-on-u-s-generosity/ https://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/almanac/statistics-on... I agree that maybe the way it is organized in US is not optimal, but the amount of money is way beyond many other places. > it seems obvious to me that they would commit fewer crimes, require less resources of policing and punishment Remember not so much time ago it was obvious for everyone that the Earth is flat? I wonder what evidence you have for yourself to support this for yourself? Just an intuition? > Do you think more police, more prisons is the best solution? Nope, I don't think so. Why? Because police and prisons most of the time address the symptoms, not the root cause. And I assume that some seemingly immoral ideas like UBI contribute to the root cause, so I try to find more opinions and views on this. ---- Anyway, can you please answer a more simple question — is it moral to choose to be a free loader in a society (if this is your free choice)? Or it depends?
    - allears 3y ago
      I don't equate accepting UBI to being a freeloader. If you read the results of various UBI trials, the participants generally used the funds wisely to meet their most immediate and pressing needs, and were then able to take steps to improve their condition, via education or training of some sort. These people didn't need a handout, just a helping hand. And my main concern isn't about the morality of others, but about my own. What I am concerned about, however, is the state of our society and whether our environment, including our social environment, is improving or deteriorating. That has a direct effect on me. So from my point of view, if my taxes increase to match, say, some Scandinavian country, but my life and my surroundings noticeably improve, that's a worthwhile tradeoff.
      - aristofun 3y ago
        Okay, I agree - not all of the UBI receivers are gonna be free loaders. Let's narrow down - is it immoral to be an intentional free loader (decided just do nothing) or not?

aristofun 3y ago

> your life would be improved if there was less crime, fewer homeless, safer neighborhoods, etc Where is the evidence for that? US to my knowledge is the world leader in both state and private donations and various support programs value (per capita). At the same time crime rates look much worse than in many other poorer countries. I cannot imagine how can one even measure any meaningful correlation and isolate signal from the noise of thousands of other factors entangled in any society. As far as I know major religions advocate for donations as being essentially a voluntary act. Which is important, because it makes me (as a moral agent) free to choose who and how I prefer to support based on my own perceptions of better good and prefer people really in need to lazy bums gaming the system.

allears 3y ago
The US is well known for having the worst social safety net of any advanced country. Where are your statistics showing that the US is a leader in supporting the poor? If we took better care of those less fortunate, it seems obvious to me that they would commit fewer crimes, require less resources of policing and punishment, and people would be less afraid to walk the streets. True, there is a lot of poverty and crime in the US now. Do you think more police, more prisons is the best solution? And anyway, if you don't want to help other people, I question your sense of "morals." It seems to me that helping to care for your fellow man is one of the basic tenets of morality.
- aristofun 3y ago
  You missing my point and moving focus away from the specific question I'm trying to ask. Instead you question my moral compass. Can you please stay on track for a while? Here is one of many stats you can find about US being a leader in charity and donations https://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/almanac/statistics-on-u-s-generosity/ https://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/almanac/statistics-on... I agree that maybe the way it is organized in US is not optimal, but the amount of money is way beyond many other places. > it seems obvious to me that they would commit fewer crimes, require less resources of policing and punishment Remember not so much time ago it was obvious for everyone that the Earth is flat? I wonder what evidence you have for yourself to support this for yourself? Just an intuition? > Do you think more police, more prisons is the best solution? Nope, I don't think so. Why? Because police and prisons most of the time address the symptoms, not the root cause. And I assume that some seemingly immoral ideas like UBI contribute to the root cause, so I try to find more opinions and views on this. ---- Anyway, can you please answer a more simple question — is it moral to choose to be a free loader in a society (if this is your free choice)? Or it depends?
  - allears 3y ago
    I don't equate accepting UBI to being a freeloader. If you read the results of various UBI trials, the participants generally used the funds wisely to meet their most immediate and pressing needs, and were then able to take steps to improve their condition, via education or training of some sort. These people didn't need a handout, just a helping hand. And my main concern isn't about the morality of others, but about my own. What I am concerned about, however, is the state of our society and whether our environment, including our social environment, is improving or deteriorating. That has a direct effect on me. So from my point of view, if my taxes increase to match, say, some Scandinavian country, but my life and my surroundings noticeably improve, that's a worthwhile tradeoff.
    - aristofun 3y ago
      Okay, I agree - not all of the UBI receivers are gonna be free loaders. Let's narrow down - is it immoral to be an intentional free loader (decided just do nothing) or not?