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1. It’s pretty much only in the US that there are union workers and non union workers in the same field. If you haven’t already guessed, this is entirely a ploy

1. It’s pretty much only in the US that there are union workers and non union workers in the same field. If you haven’t already guessed, this is entirely a ploy by corporations, and the US govt to weaken unions by creating differences where none exist. 2. Unions rarely, if ever, negotiate rights only for their own workers. The massive union protests prior to COVID asking for minimum wage increases didn’t ask for minimum wage increases only for union workers. They asked for federal and in some cases statewide increases in minimum wage which would affect all workers. 3. A lot of the research shows that higher union salaries also translate into higher non-union salaries, so union efforts also very directly help non union workers.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> pretty much only in the US that there are union workers and non union workers in the same field China. India. Japan. Korea. Pretty much all of Southeast Asia, the Middle East, Africa, Latin America, and Eastern Europe. Unions are prevalent in Northern Europe [1]. That's it. That's the exception. Outside Northern Europe, countries with great workers' rights [2] have between one in four and one in six people in unions. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_comparisons_of_trade_unions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_comparisons_of_t... [2] https://www.globalrightsindex.org/en/2023/countries https://www.globalrightsindex.org/en/2023/countries
- janalsncm 3y ago
  Maybe if China had labor unions their software engineers wouldn’t be working 996.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Maybe if China had labor unions their software engineers wouldn’t be working 996 Again, you're ignoring that countries with terrific worker protections have, on average, low union penetration. The one is uncorrelated with the other. In America, unions principally serve as a distraction. We periodically throw a few industries a bone while most workers get zero protection.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      Unions are the only path to success when Congress is operating in a degraded governance state. Do you know how many worker hours will be exhausted in suboptimal labor conditions waiting for Congress to pass human labor protections? Strong legislative labor protections would be wonderful, but they are not on offer in the present day United States. Congress won't function until the cohorts who vote for representatives unwilling to champion broadly popular policy or labor protections dies out. That's going to take a hot minute, even assuming a death rate of 1.8M voters over the age of 55/year. https://www.americanprogress.org/article/what-you-need-to-know-about-gen-zs-support-for-unions/ https://www.americanprogress.org/article/what-you-need-to-kn... (Control-F "Figure 1")
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > Unions are the only path to success when Congress is operating in a degraded governance state Congress is divided, but still generally productive [1]. Expanding labor protections simply isn't a political priority. Also, this can be done at the state and local levels. > Do you know how many worker hours will be exhausted in suboptimal labor conditions waiting for Congress to pass human labor protections? About as many as there are laid off writers? Ten percent of Americans are in unions [2]. Doubling union membership in a year has less effect than waiting ten years to pass protections into law. [1] https://datainnovation.org/2023/01/visualizing-congressional-productivity/ https://datainnovation.org/2023/01/visualizing-congressional... [2] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf
    - janalsncm 3y ago
      Individually, workers have very little bargaining power. Collectively, we have a lot of power. So unless you’re arguing that workers would deliberately argue for fewer protections, I don’t see how not having collective bargaining could lead to more workers’ rights. The fact of the matter is, God gave us Sunday off and unions gave us Saturday off. Unions were the reason child labor was banned in the U.S. We have worker’s comp and the 40 hour work week was standardized. None of those things would’ve resulted from the benevolence of profit maximizing corporations.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> pretty much only in the US that there are union workers and non union workers in the same field China. India. Japan. Korea. Pretty much all of Southeast Asia, the Middle East, Africa, Latin America, and Eastern Europe. Unions are prevalent in Northern Europe [1]. That's it. That's the exception. Outside Northern Europe, countries with great workers' rights [2] have between one in four and one in six people in unions. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_comparisons_of_trade_unions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_comparisons_of_t... [2] https://www.globalrightsindex.org/en/2023/countries https://www.globalrightsindex.org/en/2023/countries

janalsncm 3y ago
Maybe if China had labor unions their software engineers wouldn’t be working 996.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Maybe if China had labor unions their software engineers wouldn’t be working 996 Again, you're ignoring that countries with terrific worker protections have, on average, low union penetration. The one is uncorrelated with the other. In America, unions principally serve as a distraction. We periodically throw a few industries a bone while most workers get zero protection.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Unions are the only path to success when Congress is operating in a degraded governance state. Do you know how many worker hours will be exhausted in suboptimal labor conditions waiting for Congress to pass human labor protections? Strong legislative labor protections would be wonderful, but they are not on offer in the present day United States. Congress won't function until the cohorts who vote for representatives unwilling to champion broadly popular policy or labor protections dies out. That's going to take a hot minute, even assuming a death rate of 1.8M voters over the age of 55/year. https://www.americanprogress.org/article/what-you-need-to-know-about-gen-zs-support-for-unions/ https://www.americanprogress.org/article/what-you-need-to-kn... (Control-F "Figure 1")
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > Unions are the only path to success when Congress is operating in a degraded governance state Congress is divided, but still generally productive [1]. Expanding labor protections simply isn't a political priority. Also, this can be done at the state and local levels. > Do you know how many worker hours will be exhausted in suboptimal labor conditions waiting for Congress to pass human labor protections? About as many as there are laid off writers? Ten percent of Americans are in unions [2]. Doubling union membership in a year has less effect than waiting ten years to pass protections into law. [1] https://datainnovation.org/2023/01/visualizing-congressional-productivity/ https://datainnovation.org/2023/01/visualizing-congressional... [2] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf
  - janalsncm 3y ago
    Individually, workers have very little bargaining power. Collectively, we have a lot of power. So unless you’re arguing that workers would deliberately argue for fewer protections, I don’t see how not having collective bargaining could lead to more workers’ rights. The fact of the matter is, God gave us Sunday off and unions gave us Saturday off. Unions were the reason child labor was banned in the U.S. We have worker’s comp and the 40 hour work week was standardized. None of those things would’ve resulted from the benevolence of profit maximizing corporations.